"Shocking" discovery in my AF

[Joe417]

Began some simple maintenance on the TC today.

Removed the bottom cover to replace the plywood and found some issues.

The frame holding the rear of the fresh water tank was damaged.


And the thing that bothered me most was the generator main line.

I guess they should have used a "florescent" color on the wire and not just orange.

[Reddog1]

Joe417 wrote:
I didn't mean to create a stir about AF quality. As someone noted, this is an 05 model and I,m the 3rd owner.

One of the bottom panels had been off before I removed it, so, I don't know who may have put the screw through the power wire. All that it says to me is that the individual who did it may have a problem, possibly could care less, mad at the boss that day, or the dealer my have hired a blind guy to get government incentives. Who knows.

Yes, the screw is directly through the wire. I measured the resistance today and the frame was connected directly to the hot wire. Fortunately, it had no other direct connection to metal in the camper. Probably would only have been an issue if a tank had leaked to give it a path to ground.

I don't think AF quality is a problem, although the 05 isn't quite at the same level as the 13 models I looked at this past year. I still like my AF. A used camper is a used camper and if your not rich you better be able to fix it yourself.

I do agree with several posts that the frames needed more than the single spot weld they had. They will have more before I put the bottom back on.

Talk about quality, the bottom cover is about 1/8" plywood with Rustoleum truck bed liner sprayed on. (got that from a call to AF) So this morning I went to a building material place and bought 2 sheets of 1/8" plywood and the Rustoleum. When pulling it out of the truck I had about 2' supported on the tail gate and both sheets broke under their own weight. Of course, a product of china.

So, my opinion is that you can't hold anyone responsible unless you know the complete history. I hold my lumber yard and china responsible for the plywood! Other than that, I don't have all the facts, so I will repair it better than it was originally, I just wish I could flip it upside down, the knees and back aren't what they use to be.

I think Joe417 pretty much summed it up with this post, especially with "...you can't hold anyone responsible unless you know the complete history."

The thread has really started to slide away from the OP. Several interesting posts on worthwhile subjects, but not on this thread. It is time to close the thread.

Wayne
Moderator

[Super_Dave]

travelnutz wrote:
BTW, I didn't even include how vastly much more vehicles cost in Europe etc and that the people in those countries are willing to pay the extra but North Americans won't because they go for the cheapest in vehicles and RV's and then complain about what they bought. Maybe it's time to wise up and pay for quality?

travelnutz, the point that seems to have gone right past you is that there is nothing "cheap" about buying an RV and in particular, a TC. Paying top dollar for a produced good normally & rightfully comes with the expectation of top quality.

[travelnutz]

Did the American people forget what they learned or should haave in just their high school years alone. Economics 101 or simply living for years after even having only a grade school education?

Read carefully what "GDP" (Gross Domestic Product) and it's definition is:

"Gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of all officially recognized final goods and services produced within a country in a year, or other given period of time. GDP per capita is often considered an indicator of a country's standard of living."

Look it up!

Notice the word "within"? It's the reason for GDP! Sending your dollars out of your country when purchasing a foreign made product, the assembly of, major components made or assembled elsewhere, and then imported into your country and sold using your dollars LOWERS your countries standard of living which means for all! People seem to think they are raising their standard of living when it's just the opposite! It devalues your dollar and makes all good and or services more expensive within your country thru rising prices.

Ever hear of a manufacturer who moved off shore because they were making too much profit making their products here??? They only do it to survive when they must to lower the cost of making their products and getting away from business killing regulations etc. For most, it's a last resort to avoid closing down or going bankrupt. Guess where all those jobs went also. It's the result of our 50-60 yeras of increasing labor costs and mandated business stiffling regulations onshore and we haven't learned. Americans, by and large, buy the cheapest they can regardless of how or where it's built and who was employed to make the product or where the profit goes. Buy cheap, get cheap. Send you dollars and jobs out of the country and it's likely to never return unless borrowed. Borrowed means paying back with interest!

Why is it so hard to understand why we now have these issues posters complain about? The hand writting has been written on the wall in very bold letters for decades but reading must be an option to so many.

Had to fix a typo.

[jimh406]

To be clear, there are very expensive rvs that are built in the US.

[silversand]

German and Japanese RVs do not stand a chance here in the USA because by the time they make it onto our shores, they will run 2-3-4-5 times the price of a similarly sized American built RV.

....building an RV in Germany (or anywhere in Europe) and shipping the massive hulk over to North America for sale would make very little economic sense (you'd be building in one economy, and shipping to another economy!). It would only make sense for aircraft (after manufacturing in Europe, you could fly it across "The Pond" in a few hours to North American FOB buyer). The only way building a German RV (a very large and expensive item to ship across thousands of miles of ocean!) would make sense, is to license the technology (turn-key automated plant) at the point of sale (in the US or Canada). The "engine & drivetrain" could be shipped here from Europe. The automated/robotic manufacturing accouterments could be sourced here (along with raw componentry)...

...in the days when vanity exceeded economic sense, bridges were once disassembled in Europe, and shipped over to North America for re-assembly (can anyone here name 2 or 3 examples?)...

Travelnutz, what say you? (....whoops! Travelnutz answered this 2 economies thing already, above {I'm typing too slowly!})

[travelnutz]

BTW, I didn't even include how vastly much more vehicles cost in Europe etc and that the people in those countries are willing to pay the extra but North Americans won't because they go for the cheapest in vehicles and RV's and then complain about what they bought. Maybe it's time to wise up and pay for quality?

[travelnutz]

donandmax,

Our Son owned a manufacturing company in the Midlands of England and of course we visited him and his wife. It's quite/very misleading to compare US made vehicles used as puns by Germans or Europeans etc made/owned vehicles in those countries. Why? If you had looked, you would have noticed that an average 10 year old German or European, Japan etc vehicle will have LESS than 50,000 miles or 80,000 KM on the odometer. It's the norm!

Why? Fuel alone at 2-3 times the cost per the same one gallon measure compared to the USA and makes it extremely expensive to drive a lot other than to the closeby store or to work and back. Hard to wear a vehicle or it's components out if it's hardly used in one place as compared to another. Also, the area/distance driven in the European countries and Japan is quite small/compact in size/distance compared to our large distances between cities and desired vacation/travel locations or commutes as these other coumtries use intense "mass transit" systems we don't have. WE Drive! Even worse in England where the entire crowded country is 53 million population and has an land area of less than Michigan which has 10 million pop. Name others!

Japan, the same land size as England has lots of mountains with 128 million pop (4 times California) in a country smaller than California which also has about the same percentage of land being mountains and we think California is crowded??? The USA alone has 3 million sq miles of land and Canada has about the same. That's 6 million sq miles of land in just those 2 countries!

Wouldn't it be better to use apple to apples to tell the real facts and reasons behind why vehicles or components wearout or that in one example the vehicles on average also are used to pull or carry far more weight over their mileages driven? Apples to eggplants isn't getting it or even close!

Here in the USA and Canada, a ten year old vehicle with 100,000 miles on it is called a "creampuff" and not easy to find! More miles if it's a diesel like most in Europe are. A 10 year old US made vehicle in the USA with less than 50,000 miles on the OD brings a very high dollar and they are very rare! 12,000 to 15,000 in the USA is referred to as standard miles driven per year! 2-3+ times Europe's average.

[TxTiger]

Cadillac Jack wrote:

anutami wrote:

Cadillac Jack wrote:

FreeLanceing wrote:
As a certified welder of 20 plus years myself, I've said before you can't take a handfull of illegals, give them a hood and gun and expect any kind of quality welds. Welding alm is hard, really hard to get it right. Those tacks will not hold up under the flexing and vibration of going down the road. I'll stick with a wood frame. Wood is more durable and easy to fix. Anyone with an alm shell camper, trailer, fifth wheel, should be concerned. I would bet the skin and filon is the only thing holding a lot of those rigs together.

Word! Spot on in my opinion. Welding is a skilled trade and an art form. Especially Aluminum. When I climbed in and around the aluminum framed truck campers while looking to buy I was absolutely horrified by what I felt and saw with my own two eyes.

My wood framed TC feels like a brick sh*t house. But that being said, it still needed to be built properly by skilled craftsman. That's why I bought a camper built by a small and reputable company that relies not on fancy color brochures and big slide outs but on word of mouth real world reputation.

Cadillac Jack, any chance you can elaborate on this? How were you able to see the aluminum frame on a new camper without removing the skin? What were you looking for? What did you feel that lead you to believe it was garbage? Any info would be helpful. Thanks

There is a company that makes all aluminum units. I was very interested in their TC. I crawled underneath one of their TT to inspect the welds. Did not like what I saw. Incomplete welds, really nothing more than large tacks. I also climbed in and around and through the TCs. The back ladder felt like it was going to fall off the camper. Im not a big guy only 200 lbs and the entire back wall flexed. The interior cabinetry was misaligned and the doors did not open and close properly with large gaps present. Were these just one off anomalies ? Maybe.I could go on but what's the point. Folks will just get mad.

As to the comment above about companies not being able to afford QC throughout the building process I might agree, but the problem I have is the massive price tag that comes with these campers. 30 grand should come with QC in my opinion. 15 grand maybe not so much, but for crying out loud.

Here is an example of what I was talking about.

Just looking at the manufacturer's video of construction of the "all aluminum made" TC is enough to say "no way". The welds shown in the video are tack welds and look very sloppy and appear to have little strenght. The aluminum isn't even well fitted before the welding.

[jimh406]

Bedlam wrote:
As posted, this has to do with pressuring the tank.

Last time I checked, opening the drain for a sink will force water into the grey tank. Once the black tank gets so full, flushing "could" pressurize the tank. Note: I'm not saying it is exactly the same thing. 😉

In any case, getting a tank hot after filling with cold liquid (water) will pressurize the tank if there isn't sufficient venting. Likewise, gas given off from a mixture in a tank expanding could also cause pressure.

Since AF seems to have this problem more than any other manufacturer (based on reports to this forum), they seem to need a design change. There are many more Lance campers out there than probably any other brand, and I don't think I've heard of this issue with a Lance, for example. I do remember a band breaking on "one" Bigfoot.

At the end of the day, most people don't read the manual! If this was a car, there would probably be a recall or TSB. I don't fault AF for having a design mistake...it happens.

[mkirsch]

donandmax wrote:
What its going to take (never will happen) Is for Japan and Germany to start exporting moho's to the U.S. When the competition gets tough (snipped)

You're right. It's never going to happen.

It's all about price here in the USA. If you've got something that's $1 cheaper than everybody else, people will buy from you even if your product is the lousiest hunk of junk known to man. They will buy from you even if that extra $1 buys them the best product in the market.

German and Japanese RVs do not stand a chance here in the USA because by the time they make it onto our shores, they will run 2-3-4-5 times the price of a similarly sized American built RV.

The only way it will work is if there is a paradigm shift in the way people in this country think, and many more people start paying for quality instead of trying to save a buck.

[Jfet]

I wish travelnutz would stop holding back and tell us how he really feels. 😄

[donandmax]

gbopp wrote:
'Quality Control'.....:?

And we complain about the junk built in China.

What its going to take (never will happen) Is for Japan and Germany to start exporting moho's to the U.S. When the competition gets tough maybe our people will start taking construction of these moho's seriously and do better work. Its the same way in the auto industry..I was in Germany and watching tv. Some sort of comedy show. They had a car on there that broke down and the comment was: "made in America" and everyone laughed.
There are many things present day that has made a once proud country the laughing stock of the world..Thats us folks. People no longer look up and respect the flag of this country.Sorry to get off track but it really ticks me off..
Drive careful....be safe...

[travelnutz]

"Surprisingly its held up like this for almost 10 years. Must be stronger then most think"

You have to be kidding! How many years has this electrical issue, bent frame, broken welds, and leaking been a happening fact?

Hardly strong enough! The TC sits on it's bottom which is on the bed of the truck when on the truck and bouncing on the road so there's no force tearing the bottom of the TC apart then. However, take the TC off the truck and there's no support for the bottom and that's when the constant static force pulls the structure apart. This is clearly demonstrated in the OP's picture showing the sagging frame that's supposed to be supporting the water tank. The frame members aren't bent/spread apart from overfilling the water tank as was suggested. It's simply too weak to support the tank with normal filling and the terrible tack welds used surely doesn't help! Using 1/8" bottom cover to support the insulation and whatever pushing on it is insane and CHEAP beyond reason! 1/8" wood laying flat struggles to only support itself. Now the OP is learning the rest of the story as to his TC's design and construction!

Terrible design since the 1/8" wood is only attached to an occasional aluminum frame member and by what? Some type of flathead screws that the head's underside taper would be more than the 1/8" thickness of the wood? Screws that leave the heads lower than the 1/8" wood and thus hit the bed of the truck and cause rusting? Staples thru the 1/8" wood and into the aluminum frame, like that will hold anything? ??? No wonder the thin wood rots as it would leak water between the attachment points etc with any flexing at all and rot the wood from the inside. ALL TC's are not built this way by far, aluminum or wood framed, and taking off the skin tells you what's really there. You can learn so much by going to a repair place and seeing what's really under the "purdy" hiding skin covering. It tells volumes!

10 years old and as an example: $25,000 paid when new and what's it worth with a bent frame, broken welds, and the bottom rotted etc? NOT MUCH at all! Lost $2000 to $2500 each year of ownership! Get a quote to repair the TC and you'll weep!

BTW, notice the lousy fit of the foam insulation! Like it's going to do much insulating at all and especially when wet. They also use the poorly fitting foam to support the inside floor between the frame members. DUH! A 1/8" thick flimsy bottom under the foam will surely help, NOT! Be careful where you step!

Going to be fun to replace all the wet lousy insulation from the bottom, fix the welds and bent frame as more tack welds will break, correct the sidewall pinched liquid line/lines and electricals, and then put a new real bottom cover on and seal it so it doesn't leak again. No wonder the OP would like to turn his TC over the do the gobs of work required! I sure don't blame him!

Much of the same type of issues the salesman who sells 3 lines of TC said they have run into so it's not an old or isolated problem and the OP is not the virgin. Several threads on the various forums telling of tanks in AF's falling thru the floor. Check it out!

[805gregg]

I hope you are sending pictures and descriptions to AF, they need to see this