So whose left making true "Pop Ups" with Hard roofs...

[Mike_Up]

...... besides Forest River??

Now that Forest River bought Palomino, Coachmen/Viking and have their Flagstaff/Rockwood clones, not many left obviously due to their high prices referenced to hard side trailers.

I see Jayco/Starcraft are stopping their production of pop ups as Starcraft offers none now, and Jayco has but a limited handful.

Then you have the very rare Somerset brand made by Aliner that is hard to find at all.

That's about it.

On the flip side, there is "TONS" of soft top, tent trailers as quicksilver, Leesurelite, Apen, Time Out, and my favorite, "Lil Max" and others that cater to the motorcycle and econobox market.

You would think that Pop Ups would come back with a more inexpensive price but looks like makers just kill them off or clone them under several names.

I truly wish there was more made by someone other Forest River but looks like no one else really wants to make them anymore. To bad.

[PAThwacker]

My pup has heated beds(mod), 3" memory foam with gel toppers, fantastic fan (mod), sirius radio, 12vt hd dvd tv, water heater, outdoor shower, front trunk and a slideout dinette.
Super hi wind popup gizmos

Pretty glamorous off-grid built up boondocking popup.



26 gallons of fresh water, 5 gallon portable campa pottie cassette, and outside showering.
All kitchen equipment from pots grill to utensils for 6 are stored in a chuck box.

[rbpru]

I would also add that if you compare my 1990's PUP to today's model you find my PUP has a small refrigerator, indoor/outdoor stove and a hand water pump on the sink.

Upgrade all this, and add air, heater, microwave and a pop out and you have a lovely PUP, at or near the price of a TT.

If you want more, it costs more; so folk would rather move up to a TT.

[rbpru]

Tent, PUPs, and TTs are what they are. Each is suited to a difference style of camping.

I have all three and use all three. I would have a hard time getting my PUP or TT into a canoe in the Boundary Waters, my PUP is well suited to the limited spaces of some of the federal campgrounds and archery shoots I go to and of course for cross-country travel I prefer the TT.

We have used our tent for over thirty years, we bought the PUP in the mid 1990's and the TT when I retired so we could travel easier.

The PUP has served us well and provided many great memories; especially with the grandkids building their forts out of the many cushions. 🙂 There in college now and do their own camping.

[aftermath]

This post has been quite interesting. The OP doesn't like pop ups and wants to rant about poor quality among other things. Anyone who complains that a pop up doesn't have an adequate "entertainment center" is looking at the wrong trailer.

Someone wrote that it is important to look at a pop up as basically a tent off the ground. In 1989 we purchased a 1979 Starcraft tent trailer and had it until 2005. Our two daughters grew up in the thing. I did add a HW unit with a demand pump but that was it. Ice box and thin mattresses and we loved every minute in it. We never expected ducted heating, indoor plumbing or a television. When the time came the wife and I purchased a Starcraft hybrid for all of those things. I can tell you that my 1979 was better built than the 2004 hybrid. Our "tent off the ground" served us well. Many nights playing games around the table along with many storms we rode out complete with high winds and driving rains. I do agree that the market for these tent trailers has dropped off over the years. People are more interested in watching their televisions when they go out in the woods. Pretty sad.

I just found and bought back our old tent trailer. It remained here locally and is still in good shape. I have been fixing some issues due to neglect but it will be good to go soon. The youngest daughter is more than eager to put her family in it. Camping is a blast even when you don't have hookups, a 2 door fridge and a television.

[wowens79]

We had a 2003 Flagstaff PUP by Forest River, and it was much better built than our 2016 Heritage Glenn TT by Forest River. I've had more issues with the TT in the first 6 months, than I did with my PUP in 9 years.

PUPs are great if you don't want to have to get a big truck, and they can be stored in a garage.

We do like the ease of use of the TT, and really like the upgrade, but we had hundreds of great nights in the PUP.

[Mike_Up]

I'd comment again but I won't. This thread is biased as some of my posts were deleted without my knowledge or approval. Not much of a conversation when it's one sided.

[rickm]

Watch what happens if fuel prices continue to rise .... than you'll see the shift back. We are all enjoying lower ( well, supposedly lower ) prices, so we can afford to tow the bigger TT.
As for the quality of pop-ups vs TT, i'm not in agreement with Mike. I have owned several Jayco/Starcraft pop-ups and several Jayflights, and in all, i have had to do minor tweaking of this or thats .... but have all been good. I'm a huge Jayflight fan, but i have seen some things in their construction that have made me shake my head, but i understand, i only paid this much for it, not the big dollars like some others!

[SoundGuy]

Much ado about nothing children. :W Fact is, popups just don't sell well at all these days in the numbers needed to interest many dealers ... the reasons why are many and varied but no amount of bickering here on the forum about who is "right" and who is "wrong" is going to change that. :R Go camping, you'll enjoy it more. :B

[Adam_H]

I really was going to let this one sit but.....

Mike Up wrote:

As I said, I wouldn't have a single door so your point is mute.

You were comparing unit prices, not preferences in an attempt to make a point that everything in a PUP is cheaper making the margins higher for the manufacturers. When I say "single door" I'm only excluding side by side double door fridges used in larger units, not what's in your TT. $ for $ the two I was comparing are close in price, the shorter 4.2 and the std. TT fridge.

Mike Up wrote:

Nope, this is common as I even told you why. Everyone on the pop up forums were installing fans to correct defective pop up designs and inefficient refrigeration cooling. Same on both my Pop Ups.

Common in TT, FW, and MH especially with fridges installed in a slide with no rooftop exit. Some even come with fans installed from the factory, not just a PUP problem.

Mike Up wrote:

I don't buy other's ****. Every used TT and Pop Up was in poor condition, way over priced, and not much cheaper than a 'new' camper.

If you are dumb enough to pay close to MSRP, you deserve what you get. I pay nothing near.

Thank you for your concern Mike, but I assure you my "brain pan" is just fine, thanks again for asking. Was comparing apples to apples using MSRP.

Instead you buy the manufacturers ****. Deal with all the warranty issues and incompetent dealers, then take it in the shorts when you sell. Difference of opinion here, I seem to always be able to find 2 year old campers in excellent condition, lightly used for about half of what the original owner paid thereby letting them take the hit in the wallet. On the other hand, vehicles rot away a lot faster out there.

Mike Up wrote:

You sound like a liberal that can't accept that someone doesn't share your opinion. So now they are bashing. Perhaps you need to have some "TOLERANCE" for others that don't share your different way of thinking.

LOL, I've been called many things in my life but never a "liberal." Especially by someone who shows the classic traits of a liberal by manipulating the questions to fit your answers. Also the first to call names when he isn't getting his way.

Mike Up wrote:

I have and see many many old TTs in good condition and very few older pups out in the campgrounds that aren't falling apart. Once again solidifying my stance on the better quality of TTs.

You just stated above that you only buy new because you don't buy other people's **** and you have only found used units in POOR condition.

As for quality, go look at the frame on your TT. My measly little PUP is 2X5, 1/8th wall square tubing, front to back. Not that poorly welded I beam stuff. What do you have?

Mike Up wrote:

Rockwood Highwall Pups are more expensive or the same as what I actually pay for "NEW" travel trailers. I pay anywhere from 60% to 70% of MSRP. This doesn't include the artificial MSRP inflation with delivery or prep fees by untrustworthy dealers.

Once again you are manipulating the facts to achieve the answers that fit your agenda, you are comparing MSRP to negotiated pricing. I would never pay MSRP either but if we are just comparing prices to prove a point, the only constant is MSRP. What discount you get off of that is a matter of geographical location and negotiating skill among many other factors.

I do agree that the PUP market is shrinking and possibly going away but to say it's because of pricing and poor manufacturing is absurd. Almost all RV's are overpriced and built like cr@p, though price and build are part of the equation, there are many other factors that play a larger role. We now live in an instant gratification, me first, in your face, bigger is better society and PUP's just don't fit into that mindset. It takes longer to set up and take down (instant gratification out the window), and they aren't a 40' unit with 3 televisions, satellite, surround sound, built in wifi, 4 slides, 2 bathroom rolling Hilton and then to top it off, towed by an F550 King Ranch with every option solidifying your status and ensuring that there will be NOBODY in the CG with a bigger, badder rig than yours.

Most of us in the RV game either have some disposable income or are comfortable living in debt. I have always said it is a camping style and choice to own one but as society changes, PUP's are probably becoming obsolete. I'll bet if you took the NEW value of everything in a HW PUP and a 28' TT of similar quality, there is more $$$$ in the PUP because of complexity thereby reducing the margin on each one sold. I use a HW because most come with a bathroom, microwave, "entertainment" system etc.

Every so often you state that your would like a less featured 12' PUP in the 10-12K range, I am shocked you cannot find one easily, even new ones. 30 second search:

New 2017 FOREST RIVER ROCKWOOD Extreme Sports Package 1640ESP Off Road l /With a Power Lift Syst.

The following is a list of Additional Options besides the Standard Features come with the... Sale Price
$8,999.00
View Details
2017 FOREST RIVER ROCKWOOD Extreme Sports Package 1910ESP

New 2017 FOREST RIVER ROCKWOOD Extreme Sports Package 1910ESP

The following is a list of Additional Options besides the Standard Features come with the... Sale Price
$10,999.00
View Detai

New 2017 FOREST RIVER ROCKWOOD Extreme Sports Package 2280BHESP SHOWER/CASSETTE TOILET

The following is a list of Additional Options besides the Standard Features come with the...

All below 12K MSRP in CA $$$$. So anything you get knocked off that price is $$$$ in your pocket. I only looked for new so you wouldn't be buying someone else's ****.

Good Luck,
Adam

[SoundGuy]

Mike Up wrote:
Presently none of my local dealers are selling pop ups because they aren't selling.

I just talked to one dealer who has no standard model pop ups or even larger 12' models. They only sell the cheapest pop ups because the higher end models don't sell due to their higher prices.

As a former longtime Coleman / Fleetwood retailer my local dealer took on Somerset for awhile but found them nearly impossible to sell due to their excessively high prices, and once he finally did get rid of his last lot model he decided to drop the line entirely. It's hard to believe Somerset is running multiple shifts just to produce these things as I rarely if ever see any when we're out camping - rare as hen's teeth in these parts. As a Coachmen dealer his alternate offering has been Viking camping trailers but a couple of years ago he decided to drop those as well as it often takes just as much effort to sell one of those as it does a hybrid or travel trailer which offers a much wider profit margin. His salespeople however objected as they view popups as a loss leader that will bring those owners back a few years later wanting to upgrade to a travel trailer so he relented and restored his stock. However, time proved him correct after all so once the last lot model was sold last year he decided that was it - no more. The reality simply is that upscale popups are just way too expensive, less well equipped models don't offer sufficient margin to justify the work involved in selling them, and way too many come back for repairs.

[Mike_Up]

BTW, if I could find a nice 12' box Pop Ups with what I need, and for a reasonable price, I may just buy it. It gives me more choices of new homes.

Presently none of my local dealers are selling pop ups because they aren't selling.

I just talked to one dealer who has no standard model pop ups or even larger 12' models. They only sell the cheapest pop ups because the higher end models don't sell due to their higher prices. But he will call me when a 12' pop up comes on to their lot, if ever.

[PAThwacker]

Bwahaha. I have a pupup, travel trailer and fifth wheel. Each has its intended usage and I spend more time backpacking and canoe camping.

[Adam_H]

One more note, your Jayco (nice unit btw) was $3k more than a new top of the line Rockwood HW PUP. And those PUPs have a dining room slide out, which yours does not.
This is comparing California $$$ too and everything is more expensive here.

[Adam_H]

Mike Up wrote:

Adam H wrote:
2. the 4.2 cu/ft fridge is just as expensive as the larger single door TT fridge

I wouldn't have a single door refrigerator. To small and the internal freezer is just big enough for ice cubes.

Adam H wrote:
3. In another thread, you stated the PUP fridges don't work as well without fans, not true

They only get between 40 to 50 degrees without added fans because they are installed wrong. They need space above the refrigerator with a vent to draw air across the fins. Pop Up refrigerators don't have space above, just a panel above and a vent on the side. Their vent is below the top of the refrigerator which doesn't provide enough natural air flow across the fins for adequate cooling. Hense the necessity for aftermarket fans.

Adam H wrote:
5. "entertainment system??" When has a TT come with a high end entertainment system? I'm talking mainstream TT's not the top line stuff.

My TT is a mainstream and comes with a DVD Player system, 26" HD Flat Panel TV, and provides indoor ceiling speakers and outdoor wall speakers. Only the cheapest models don't offer that.

Adam H wrote:
7. Oh yeah, I have a hard wall bathroom, no curtain like you stated in one of your other posts.

Very rare, only the more expensive pop ups have that, which are usually much more expensive than a much better featured travel trailer. My Pop Up and every other pop up on the new market that's not a "HIGH WALL" has a curtain.

Adam H wrote:
Maybe you should've tried a high wall PUP? Actually, I don't think any PUP would satisfy you so you had better stick to your TT.

No, the High wall campers are way over priced for what they have and their refrigerators are still to small to hold enough food for a week for a family along with the lack of an adequate sized freezer to hold enough frozen food. Also the lack of over head storage keeps everyone crawling on the floor for storage. Then storage is still lacking.

Getting back to what I was saying:

While the above is true, for a price that is adjusted down from a travel trailer, to reference the lower end appliances and such, is doable for me, not so much for the wife.

I've had 2 brand new pop ups and their prices were in line with what they were and not over priced compared to prices on todays Pop Ups. If a good quality made Pop Up had lower prices in comparison to the much more featured travel trailers, then that's a camper worth considering.

Fridge: you were comparing price not size, look it up. If yours was only getting to 50deg it was BROKEN, next time get it fixed. FWIW, most RV refrigerators are installed wrong, this isn't a problem exclusive to PUPs

Yeah, you have a bigger TV than I do, everything else is the same. Guess I'd have to go to Costco and spend $150 to equal your "entertainment system"

Every camper from the smallest PUP to the largest DP class A is overpriced. If you're buying brand new then you're taking a bath on every one of them, maybe that's why they seem overpriced??

Point being is people make a CHOICE on the type of camping they want to do. I did, I've had PUPS, TTS and even a tear drop. I could buy any trailer I wanted to go camping but I chose.... Your comsistent bashing, degrading and baiting PUPs and owners is not wanted. You start these threads to forward your agenda on bashing and a few others join in but most just roll their eyes and think it's just Mike again spewing his cr@p. What axe do you have to grind with PUPs? I admit it has been a while but I don't think you can buy a new top of the line TT for 16k, more like 20-25k unless it is small. Remember, some PUPs open to near 30' and more.

So I will end my part in this thread by saying my PUP is built much better than any of my TTs were. Like I stated earlier, look how many old PUPs are out there and how few old TTs are out there, gives you a measure of the quality of the build doesn't it? Now, go back to the TT page and find something to bit@h about there, lol...