Surge/voltage protectors

[two_travelers]

Looking o add a surge protector to our coach. Previously, I had a Progressive Industries unit for over 11 yrs and feel it's time for a new one. I notice that Camco and Southwire also make similar units. How do these comparet to the Progressive units? Prefer a hard wired unit.

[westom]

TechWriter wrote:
How do you know this?

1) Read their specification numbers. Which one does not explain this?

2) We traced destructive paths through electronics because a protectors was too close to electronics. It has been observed often. And justified in design reviews where damage had to be explained.

3)Basic electrical concepts combined with spec numbers say a protector, that must either 'block' or 'absorb' a potentially destructive surge, only claims to absorb tiny (ie 3500 joules) surges. Tiny surges are routinely made irrelevant by what is already inside electronics.

4) Effective protectors, from a current transient that some want to call a voltage surge, must have - and I should not have to keep repeating this - a low impedance connection to earth. Furthermore, increased separation between a protector and appliances increases protection - increases impedance.

5) Protectors that only protect from brownouts, noise or blackouts are also called surge protectors. Does not matter what you think. Any label that is subjective can protect from anything they want to call a surge - including a tidal surge if they want. Subjective terms say little. What they call a surge is defined in numeric specifications.

6) This current spike is nowhere near the typical RV power anomaly (and reason for) a PI protector.

7) All protectors (like wall receptacles, water pipes, oil tanks, and switches) degrade. A properly sized protector degrades so slowly that nobody cares. An RV will have long been retired. Not to be confused with near zero joule protectors from APC, Belkin, etc that may be so undersized as to sometimes be confiscated in found by a cruise ship in your luggage. APC recently admitted some 15 million are so dangerous as so to be removed immediately.

😎 Those near zero protectors are not worthless. They only do what spec numbers say they will do. To do anything useful, they must be used with something completely different from everything discussed here - a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Do not confuse near zero, plug-in protectors with what an RV protector must do.

[wa8yxm]

time2roll wrote:
One too many small surges and it cuts off power right?
Wait until that day and send it in for warranty replacement.

Do you know how the TPR valve on your water heater works with regard to pressure?

Cheap "Surge Guard" devices work like that.. If power SPIKES (*not surges) they "Bleed off" the excess pressure (Voltage)

They do wear out and you loose protection, but they do not "Cut you off" they just let you down

True "Surge Guard" energy monitors.. Well they look at the voltage, and if it's a small "Spike' work like above. But on a true surge (Sustained high) or Brown out (Low) cut you off. that generally does not wear out.

[time2roll]

westom wrote:
A protector for that anomaly must make a low impedance connection, as short as possible (ie located at the pole), so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth. Protectors (that are best chained to that pole) can protect from that anomaly - called a surge.

So you need close to a million joules dissipation to be worth while?

So the PI surge protector with 3,580 joules is basically worthless?

Product Specs:
Surge Protection: 5-Mode / 3,580J / 88,000A
Ratings: 50A / 120V/240V / 12,000W
Operating Temperatures: -40C to +105C

[pianotuna]

Westom, are you saying PI has "special" MOVs that don't slowly die while doing the job of surge suppression?

I would never suggest that a "brown out" is a surge. It is the opposite.

[TechWriter]

westom wrote:

The 'surge' that so many believe is protector destructive actually does not damage any properly sized protector. It only damages near zero and ineffective protectors often sold under the APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, and Monster labels.

How do you know this?

[westom]

time2roll wrote:
Surge to me is a voltage spike. Not to be confused with continuous high or low voltage.

Then a PI (and other RV protectors) is, to you, not a surge protector. 'Surges' that cause most problems in campgrounds is, to you, not a surge.

Which voltage spike concerns you? One that creates a high voltage. Or one created by constant current source? Second, only creates high voltages (ie thousands) when something foolishly tries to 'block' or 'absorb' it. No protector even claims to 'block' or 'absorb' that transient; completely contradicting what so many believe only due to advertising, wild speculation, hearsay, and urban myths.

A protector for that anomaly must make a low impedance connection, as short as possible (ie located at the pole), so that hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate in earth. Protectors (that are best chained to that pole) can protect from that anomaly - called a surge.

[time2roll]

Surge to me is a voltage spike. Not to be confused with continuous high or low voltage. The surge spike is very temporary in nature vs the continuous high or low voltage.

So for an actual surge (spike) does the protector just absorb the spike?
At any point does it decide it cannot absorb any more and cut power?

[westom]

time2roll wrote:
One too many small surges and it cuts off power right?
Wait until that day and send it in for warranty replacement.

Define surge. What of so many anomalies is this one surge?

A surge called a brownout means power is cut off to protect motorized appliances. It cuts off on every such 'surge'. Protector does not fail.

The 'surge' that so many believe is protector destructive actually does not damage any properly sized protector. It only damages near zero and ineffective protectors often sold under the APC, Belkin, Panamax, Tripplite, and Monster labels. And is never averted by cutting off power. Effective protector does not fail.

Discussed are two completely different anomalies. Both were called surges - subjectively. Each anomaly must be discussed quantitatively.

[time2roll]

One too many small surges and it cuts off power right?
Wait until that day and send it in for warranty replacement.

[westom]

AllegroD wrote:
No way to tell how many sugres it had sustained and I figured that after 10+ years of regular use,

You are confusing 'surges' it is designed to protect from with 'surges' that power strips claim (and do not) protect from. If MOVs degraded in those 10 years, then those MOV were too grossly undersized - did not even claim effective protection.

PI protector is for something completely different and also called a surge.

[westom]

TechWriter wrote:
Which PI unit? And how do you know?

Buy and wire in a tiniest MOV sold in Radio Shack. Then you too can have 'equivalent' protection.

Many 'hope and pray' that a subjective phrase called surge protection will protect from transients such as lightning. Reality is found in numbers. Only protector that protect from that one anomaly must be attached at the pole to make a low impedance (every foot shorter) connection to earth. Protection increases with every tens of feet separation between protector and coach. All this is about a parameter called impedance.

What defines protection from transients (which is completely different from other 'surges' such as low voltage)? Not any protector. Protection is defined by the quality of and connection to an earth ground electrode.

PI protectors are mostly for anomalies that are more frequent and problematic, as described by wa8yxm.

[AllegroD]

two travelers wrote:
It was a big job taking out of one we were trading in and I did not have time or tools to do the job. Tech at Progressive indicated that there are just so many surges the unit can take before the MOV device does not work well. He seemed to think that, if we could swing it, a new one would be a good idea. No way to tell how many sugres it had sustained and I figured that after 10+ years of regular use, it was time for a new one. With all the $$ we were spending a few more would not matter.

With a lifetime warranty, isn't the tech stating that they should replace it, if the tech thinks it is no longer able to perform as it should.

[wa8yxm]

TecWriter.. You keep asking questions someone who works as a TechWriter should be able to figure out easily.. Or perhaps that is why I listed one of my Skills as Technical Translator.. I take what you write and re-write it so it can be understood.. And yes, that is a complaint. I should not be needed.

Translating "Advanced Surge Protection"

Google MOV (Metal Oxcide Vairsistors if I've spelled it properly)

They have a bunch of them connected accross the input lines on teh Hughes Autoformer.. Now a few is "Basic" More is "Advanced" and it does not matter how many you have that is Spike Supression.. NOT SURGE. You hit that puppy with too much voltage for more than a little bit.. Well Those can take 230 volts (They have additional MOVs later) but the standard MOV's used for 120 volt become firecrackers at 240.. Been there when it happened.

[pianotuna]

Hi techwriter,

Because the Joules numbers for surge are (or were) identical.