Possible Affordable Lithium Ion Battery Option

[adamis]

I've posted before about lithium ion battery options and had some good discussion. I've once again done some research and it appears that more and more companies are getting into the large Lithium Ion battery business. A quick search and I found the following on Amazon:

Suaoki Power Source

Anker Power House 120AH

Jackery Power Pro

The first two units are 120 amp hours while the third is 140 amp hours. Though not as generous as my 300 amp hour Lifeline batteries I currently have, should be enough to get the job done. They are also solar panel ready, come with all of the battery monitoring one might want, have power inverter for low draw devices and the dimensions are very compact (Suaoki is 9x5.5x9 and the Anker is 6x8x7 inches). Both units weight less than 13lbs. Considering that my Lifelines weigh 90lbs each, that is not an insignificant weight reduction to be had.

I'm not ready to pounce just yet but if these companies get in an arms race to one up each other in the capacity area then I could see in six months time strongly considering this option instead of going with more traditional batteries.

Two issues I see...

1: May not provide enough DC power to start the generator.

2: Wiring into camper might take some creativity depending since they aren't designed to be hardwired (just plug sockets I believe).

What other issues do you guys see? Anyone else tempted by this route?

[SidecarFlip]

One thing to keep in mind and that is, a solid state battery (lithium or derivitave) can be discharged way below 50% with no issues. A conventional battery below 50% starts gassing off and producing lead sulfate which kills the battery

That is the big advantage to a Li-I or Li-Iron phosfate battery they don't produce lead sulfate which kills conventional batteries. That and unit weight.

Why I run an accurate battery monitor and not the bargain basement monitor camper builders install that tells nothing.

Unless you run a Trimetric or a Seelevel you have no idea of your battery condition or state of charge.

[work2much]

adamis wrote:
Unless I am missing something, it doesn't seem like there are really any high current components to a camper other than possibly the jacks. Perhaps the furnance blower and water pump but even then, thouse items are cylical. For those with battery monitors, how many amp hours do you typically pull in a day? My current batteries on my most recent trip to Tahoe lasted nearly a full week with a 20 watt solar panel and 30 minutes once on the genset.

Even if I got just 2 or 3 days using one of these battery solutions, I'm thinking the tradeoff in volume and weight savings would be well worth it. Couple it with a 200 watt solar panel and I have to think you would be covered power wise. Heck, you only really need the battery to last through the night if you have a large enough solar array to top up during the day.

If we flip the equation from trying to maximize our battery capacity for multi-day stints to minimizing our consumption and optimizing the system to sustain for 24 hours with a full recharge what is really necessary?

Depends on what you are doing. When we were camping a couple weeks at a time we could stretch a couple group 27 batteries to do minimal things with only the trickle charge while driving.

Full timing we don't drive as much and need more. it would be nice to be able to run anything we want most of the time. Toaster oven, AC etc... This will require a big system which is too heavy for a TC using std. batteries, but very possible with lithium and large solar array. Currently we have 500 watt and 425 AH which has worked great using only small draws like crock pot and fridge when sunny. I would like to get as close as possible to doubling those numbers. Lithium has the advantage of being able to disharge more fully and much lighter and more compact. Just super pricey.

[SidecarFlip]

With me, weight is always a factor. Unlike a pull behind or motorhome, I run a lightweight truck camper off road so lighter is always better.

[HMS_Beagle]

A little more information about Lithium (specifically LFP) and lead acid (LA):

It is true that LFP can be used to 80 or 90 precent depth of discharge without degrading life much, while this degrades the life of LA batteries significantly. An LFP bank needs only to be 50 or 60 percent of the total AH of an LA bank to do the same job. Another advantage of LFP is they accept a very high rate of charge right to the top, while LA batteries acceptance rate tapers off dramatically as they are charged above 80 percent or so. This means an LFP bank can be charged quickly with a shorter generator run or drive. It takes several hours to fully charge an LA bank, regardless of the source of charge. Along with this is the need to recharge AGM batteries to 100 percent periodically (weekly, perhaps) or they will die early. They do not tolerate a partial state of charge long term. LFP on the other hand are quite happy at a partial state of charge, and in fact it is preferred that they be stored that way. The combination of high acceptance rate all the way to full, and tolerance of not being fully charged, makes them ideal for full time living away from shore power.

For many though, these aren't great advantages. In a sunny climate with lots of solar panels on the roof, AGM batteries get charged fully every day. The weight of two 6V batteries isn't very much in a camper and the weight savings for LFP not much advantage. I can live in my camper continuously from two 6V AGMs (220AH total capacity) with 200W solar as the only source of charge (as long as I am parked in the sun). Overnight on a cold night I may be down 40 AH, this is recovered by the solar by midday. Other than LED lighting, I make no effort to save power.

If you needed to depend on another source of charge such as a genset or the truck alternator, LFPs have significant advantage: you do not need to run the generator for many hours periodically to fully charge, and the charging can be much faster (with a proper charger) for less generator run time. Against this is the disadvantage of higher cost and complexity in the installation.

[Freep]

adamis wrote:
Unless I am missing something, it doesn't seem like there are really any high current components to a camper other than possibly the jacks. Perhaps the furnance blower and water pump but even then, thouse items are cylical. For those with battery monitors, how many amp hours do you typically pull in a day? My current batteries on my most recent trip to Tahoe lasted nearly a full week with a 20 watt solar panel and 30 minutes once on the genset.

Even if I got just 2 or 3 days using one of these battery solutions, I'm thinking the tradeoff in volume and weight savings would be well worth it. Couple it with a 200 watt solar panel and I have to think you would be covered power wise. Heck, you only really need the battery to last through the night if you have a large enough solar array to top up during the day.

If we flip the equation from trying to maximize our battery capacity for multi-day stints to minimizing our consumption and optimizing the system to sustain for 24 hours with a full recharge what is really necessary?

You didn't list microwave ovens. Having a functioning microwave without needing to fire up a generator would be fantastic.

[adamis]

Unless I am missing something, it doesn't seem like there are really any high current components to a camper other than possibly the jacks. Perhaps the furnance blower and water pump but even then, thouse items are cylical. For those with battery monitors, how many amp hours do you typically pull in a day? My current batteries on my most recent trip to Tahoe lasted nearly a full week with a 20 watt solar panel and 30 minutes once on the genset.

Even if I got just 2 or 3 days using one of these battery solutions, I'm thinking the tradeoff in volume and weight savings would be well worth it. Couple it with a 200 watt solar panel and I have to think you would be covered power wise. Heck, you only really need the battery to last through the night if you have a large enough solar array to top up during the day.

If we flip the equation from trying to maximize our battery capacity for multi-day stints to minimizing our consumption and optimizing the system to sustain for 24 hours with a full recharge what is really necessary?

[DWeikert]

adamis wrote:

The first two units are 120 amp hours while the third is 140 amp hours.

One missing piece of information. A typical group 31 AGM Deep Cycle battery has a rating of 105 ah @ 20HR RATE. Note they don't give the time parameter on those lithium batts.

[SidecarFlip]

work2much wrote:
Following with interest. I think we are going to bite the bullet and go with lithium battery set up in our next unit, most likely a Host mammoth.

Check out the Airstream forum if you want to read about high technology batteries. Airstream owners have HUGE wallets and love technology.

[work2much]

Following with interest. I think we are going to bite the bullet and go with lithium battery set up in our next unit, most likely a Host mammoth.

[rexlion]

Sorry for the loss of your friend, Gordon.

[GordonThree]

Ah are ah but apples are not oranges. A 100 ah lithium is equivalent to a 200 ah lead battery. Why? Because the power band of the lithium is much wider. You can extract 80-99% of the power from a lithium versus 50% roughly from a lead.

A cheap lead will last 3-5 pricier 5-7 yrs. A lithium will last 10+

Lithium has benefits in banks. Is it worth it to replace 1 or 2 lead? No. Is it worth it to replace 6 or 8 lead? Absolutely.

Don't skimp on chemistry or a BMS. Managing a lithium pack doesn't need to be scary, IT IS rocket science but luckily there are computerized modules that are already programmed to care for your packs.

[time2roll]

2oldman wrote:

adamis wrote:
The first two units are 120 amp hours while the third is 140 amp hours.

I don't think so.

I don't understand how 400wh is equivalent to 120,000mAh (120ah). Something isn't right there.

This post should be in Tech issues.

I assume the 120,000 mAh is through the 5v USB connector to compare with external phone batteries.

[HMS_Beagle]

While lithium ion batteries can produce an amazing amount of current from a small package, for house use amp-hours are still amp-hours. Don't be fooled by "equivalent amp-hours" or other marketing BS. That is meaningless when used as house batteries.

In addition, the cheap stuff being sold as "drop in replacement" for lead acid isn't really. In many lithium chemistries mistreatment can be quite hazardous. The LiFePo4 chemistry most commonly used for house batteries in RV/Marine, there is less fire danger but you can still damage them easily, an expensive mistake.

For someone living full time in their RV/Boat without access to shore power, you can justify the very high cost of a properly installed system because over their life they will be cheaper per amp-hour delivered than flooded lead acid. But for weekenders and holiday trips it's pretty hard to reach the payoff until the cost comes down substantially.

[Kayteg1]

time2roll wrote:

100 Ah Relion $1,300

Ouch
In the mean time I did test with my equipement.
My cigarette pack DID start Honda 3000 even it was showing only 75% of charge and after 2 years of sitting Honda did not start on the first turn.
Amazing, simply amazing.


Click For Full-Size Image.