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RE: Why diesels are most efficient around 1,800 rpm

There are times it would be advisable to manually shift or lock out gears I’m not arguing that. I am saying that revving an engine higher under light loads with the idea of increasing fuel economy is foolish. No one in their right mind is going to make it a habit of locking out overdrive gears to increase their fuel economy,
4x4ord 10/20/20 02:57pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Why diesels are most efficient around 1,800 rpm

Shiner, you are applying a little bit of truth improperly to come up with a stupid recommendation. I couldn't read your post without at least doing a simple test to give some real somewhat scientific numbers so: I drove my truck in 5th gear at 1800 rpm/92 kph up a long incline and measured the fuel economy on the DIC .... 13mpg (18.6 liters per 100). I turned around, went back and conducted the same test at 92 km per hour in 6th gear .... 13.6 mpg (17.8 liters per 100). I then did a similar experiment over a stretch of highway going down a grade for the duration of the test... 43 mpg in 6th at 92 kph and 33 mpg in 5th at 1800 rpm/92kph. So although a diesel engine may be most efficient at 1800 rpm it is best to let the engineers worry about what gear and rpm your truck should run at. Put it in "D" and go. And choose the highest speed rear end recommended for the load you expect to tow. Yeah, you are right and Cummins engineers are wrong. What are they thinking? Also, the algorithms the truck computers uses is not even close to being 100% accurate. It does not measure the actual amount of fuel used and instead relies on various sensors and PID's to come up with it's number. BTW, I am not making a recommendation here. I am just posting information I have that explains why every diesel BSFC map I have seen shows that it's peak efficiency under load is around 1,800 rpm. I am also not sure you know how transmission tuning works. It is a vanilla tuning that relies on pressure, rpms, and throttle input to know when to shift. It does not have the AI capabilities to know what kind of load you are carrying, the drag resistance, the weight, or if you are about to come up to a hill so it will know to downshift. The only transmissions that I know can do that are the Eaton Endurant transmissions which they(Eaton) teamed up with Cummins to program the transmission to shift according to GPS data and grade sensors inside the trans. This GPS data is constantly being updated. You are giving your truck's TCM more credit than it is due. It is not that smart. If the Ram/Cummins engineers believed they could increase the fuel economy of their trucks by holding the truck in a lower gear at 60 mph to keep the engine at 1800 rpm instead of shifting into overdrive do you honestly think they wouldn't do it? Try it on your Ram .... drive at 1800 rpm in 4th gear and measure your fuel economy and mph. Now drive the exact same test in drive (presumably 6th gear)at the same mph ... there is no way you are going to measure better fuel economy at 1800 rpm and 4th than what you will measure in the gear the truck wants to run in. I have! I have driven the same 160 mile route to the cost towing my 5ver in 6th and in 5th many times. Filled up before and after to get calculated numbers instead of computer. Averaging out each time I towed in 6th and in 5th on my app, I got better fuel mileage in 5th. Unloaded or very light loads below 5k or 7k with low drag, being at the lowest rpm possible is best for fuel economy according to my calculated numbers. My truck does not know whether I am towing 6k or 12k to know which gear is the best one to stay in. All it knows is pressure, load(throttle input), and rpm to dictate which gear to be in. It is like fuel tables. If it sees X pressure, Y load, and Z rpm, then it looks up this point on the table to see if it should up shift or or not. It knows nothing about the trailer you are towing or if you are about to come up on an incline to downshift. It is not that smart. Unless the Ram/Cummins engineers are idiots which I am certain they are not your transmission will do better at selecting the appropriate gear for fuel economy than you can. I just did a quick search to see what Cummins says about running the 6.7 at 1800 rpm: Here
4x4ord 10/20/20 01:48pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Why diesels are most efficient around 1,800 rpm

Shiner, you are applying a little bit of truth improperly to come up with a stupid recommendation. I couldn't read your post without at least doing a simple test to give some real somewhat scientific numbers so: I drove my truck in 5th gear at 1800 rpm/92 kph up a long incline and measured the fuel economy on the DIC .... 13mpg (18.6 liters per 100). I turned around, went back and conducted the same test at 92 km per hour in 6th gear .... 13.6 mpg (17.8 liters per 100). I then did a similar experiment over a stretch of highway going down a grade for the duration of the test... 43 mpg in 6th at 92 kph and 33 mpg in 5th at 1800 rpm/92kph. So although a diesel engine may be most efficient at 1800 rpm it is best to let the engineers worry about what gear and rpm your truck should run at. Put it in "D" and go. And choose the highest speed rear end recommended for the load you expect to tow. Yeah, you are right and Cummins engineers are wrong. What are they thinking? Also, the algorithms the truck computers uses is not even close to being 100% accurate. It does not measure the actual amount of fuel used and instead relies on various sensors and PID's to come up with it's number. BTW, I am not making a recommendation here. I am just posting information I have that explains why every diesel BSFC map I have seen shows that it's peak efficiency under load is around 1,800 rpm. I am also not sure you know how transmission tuning works. It is a vanilla tuning that relies on pressure, rpms, and throttle input to know when to shift. It does not have the AI capabilities to know what kind of load you are carrying, the drag resistance, the weight, or if you are about to come up to a hill so it will know to downshift. The only transmissions that I know can do that are the Eaton Endurant transmissions which they(Eaton) teamed up with Cummins to program the transmission to shift according to GPS data and grade sensors inside the trans. This GPS data is constantly being updated. You are giving your truck's TCM more credit than it is due. It is not that smart. If the Ram/Cummins engineers believed they could increase the fuel economy of their trucks by holding the truck in a lower gear at 60 mph to keep the engine at 1800 rpm instead of shifting into overdrive do you honestly think they wouldn't do it? Try it on your Ram .... drive at 1800 rpm in 4th gear and measure your fuel economy and mph. Now drive the exact same test in drive (presumably 6th gear)at the same mph ... there is no way you are going to measure better fuel economy at 1800 rpm and 4th than what you will measure in the gear the truck wants to run in.
4x4ord 10/20/20 01:13pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Why diesels are most efficient around 1,800 rpm

I know on my 2018 Ram I get better MPG at 77-80 MPH which puts me in the targeted RPM range. Seems like lower lugs the engine I certainly believe you get better fuel economy at 80 mph and 1800 rpm than you would at 90 mph and 2025 rpm. If you found your Ram got better fuel economy at 80 mph and 1800 rpm than it did at 70 mph and 1575 rpm than I'd be willing to bet there is more to your story than what you are reporting.
4x4ord 10/20/20 12:55pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Why diesels are most efficient around 1,800 rpm

Shiner, you are applying a little bit of truth improperly to come up with a stupid recommendation. I couldn't read your post without at least doing a simple test to give some real somewhat scientific numbers so: I drove my truck in 5th gear at 1800 rpm/92 kph up a long incline and measured the fuel economy on the DIC .... 13mpg (18.6 liters per 100). I turned around, went back and conducted the same test at 92 km per hour in 6th gear (1414 rpm) and measured 13.6 mpg (17.8 liters per 100). I then did a similar experiment over a stretch of highway going down a grade for the duration of the test... 43 mpg in 6th at 92 kph (1414 rpm) and 33 mpg in 5th at 1800 rpm/92kph. So although a diesel engine may be most efficient at 1800 rpm it is best to let the engineers worry about what gear and rpm your truck should run at. Put it in "D" and go. And choose the highest speed (lowest numerical) rear end recommended for the load you expect to tow.
4x4ord 10/20/20 11:51am Tow Vehicles
RE: Curious: difference between a WD hitch and Hensley Arrow

If I ever go from a fiver to a TT I will most likely just bite the bullet and get a Hensley/Propride hitch but I don't doubt that many people can get their WD hitch set up to tow good enough without the added expense of one of these hitches. It's kind of like those who insist you need a dually for a larger 5ver .... it is likely that the dually adds a level of comfort to the towing experience but for many of us the wider/longer truck vs a SRW short box is, overall, more of a disadvantage that an advantage. The extra cost of a Hensley for those who seldom use their trailer can easily be understood as not worth the advantage.
4x4ord 10/20/20 10:42am Towing
RE: Dualie vs SRW benefits?

The difference in price between a diesel srw and a 7.3 litre gasoline powered dually is about $6500. You’d likely get $5k of that back 12 years down the road. For a 15k fiver I think you’d be much happier with a SRW diesel than a dual wheeled gasser. Diesel Price on same F-350 with $3K discount is about $64K or $10K more. I agree the diesel is a great engine (had a 400 ISL in my Monaco), but the 7.3 gas is a good option up to 16K. If you plan to tow over 16K, you clearly should have a diesel. Base MSRPS1 $46,305 Total of OptionsS4 $19,385 Destination ChargesS17 $1,695 Total MSRPS16 $67,385 2020 Ford Super Duty F-350 XLT Crew Cab®, 8’ Box, 6.7L Power Stroke® V8 Turbo Diesel Engine, TorqShift® 10-speed Automatic Transmission, 4.10 Limited Slip Axle Ratio, 4X2, DRW$46,305 Iconic Silver$0 Power Stroke® V8 Turbo Diesel Engine 4X2 TorqShift® 10-speed Automatic Transmission with Selectable Drive Modes 4.10 Limited Slip Axle Ratio Ultimate Trailer Tow Camera System with Pro Trailer Backup Assist™$1,600 XLT Premium Package $3,025 11,400 (SRW)/13,000 (DRW Only) GVWR Package $0 17" Forged Polished Aluminum Wheels with Bright Hub Cover and Center Ornament (DRW)$600 Tailgate Step with Tailgate Assist $375 Bedliner – Tough Bed® Spray-in$595 Rear Window – Defrost with Privacy Glass $60 5th-Wheel/Gooseneck Hitch Prep Package $500 BoxLink™$0 Hitch Kit – 5th Wheel, 27.5K$1,495 PowerScope® Telescoping Trailer Tow Mirrors $280 6-inch Angular Chrome Running Boards $0 LT245/75Rx17E BSW A/S Tires$0 The diesel is about a 10k option. Duals are about 1300 and the 7.3 is about a 1700 option. So the Msrp of a SRW diesel will be about 7k more than the MSRP of the 7.3 dually. You should be able to negotiate at least 10% off MSRP which puts the difference at about $6300.
4x4ord 10/20/20 07:31am Fifth-Wheels
RE: Dualie vs SRW benefits?

I was at/over the limits on my '15 F350 SRW SB, CC, 4x4, 6.7 with current RV in sig. While it towed it w/ ease, just had this nagging feeling in pit of my stomach about certain overages. Year after we bought the RV, decided to go to FL for summer vaykay and this was the straw that broke the camels back. Sodespite how much I really liked the '15 SRW, bought a '17 F350 DRW, CC, 4x4, 6.7 and what a difference in towing. For all the reasons already stated plus the fact that the DW said she felt more comfy when she had to drive so I could catch some sleep. A true downside to the DRW is driving in snow. Simply put, they stink even w/ 1200# of tube sand over rear axle. I have managed to navigate drive-thrus, but they still are tight. Parking can be a bit cumbersome, but again, manage it. No car washes in my part can accommodate a DRW, so washing is all Armstrong. Do I wish I had a SRW? For everyday errands/bopping around and wintertime, YES. But it's not going to happen, so I adjust and live w/ it. Towing the RV (Pin 3700, dry 14,000, total max 16,000), makes life a lot more enjoyable. The 2020 Is a totally different truck than your 2015 was. I believe there is a significant difference in the suspension of the 2020 vs my ‘17 . As well, even though I don’t feel I need the benefit of a long box, the long box will tow nicer than a short box.
4x4ord 10/19/20 10:02am Fifth-Wheels
RE: Dualie vs SRW benefits?

I tow a 15k fiver with my 2017 short box and stay within the gvwr of the truck. The 2020 long box has a gvwr of 12400 lbs vs mine at 11500. He’d have absolutely no trouble with payload going with a 2020 srw f350 long box.
4x4ord 10/19/20 12:00am Fifth-Wheels
RE: Dualie vs SRW benefits?

The difference in price between a diesel srw and a 7.3 litre gasoline powered dually is about $6500. You’d likely get $5k of that back 12 years down the road. For a 15k fiver I think you’d be much happier with a SRW diesel than a dual wheeled gasser.
4x4ord 10/18/20 11:35pm Fifth-Wheels
RE: Almost found a truck

A long box is next to impossible to find around here and fortunately so is a f250 hard to find. I think if I were to go long box I might go all the way to duals ..... not going to happen on my next truck but maybe the one after that.
4x4ord 10/17/20 09:01pm Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

My SIL is still driving my old ‘93 GMC 6.5 turbo diesel cc 4x4. I think it handles and rides better than my 2017 Ford and it’s still a very nice looking truck. I’d like to see him get another 15 years out of that truck.
4x4ord 10/17/20 04:41am Tow Vehicles
RE: Decided on a truck after MANY months.

I’m still waiting for the pic.
4x4ord 10/17/20 04:32am Tow Vehicles
RE: Tuned Towing Comparison on Duramax, Cummins, Power Stroke

The handling and ride of my 2017 Ford is probably the only thing that has me missing my GMC. If I to take something from each truck it would be the IFS and exterior styling of the GMC the Ford powertrain and the Ram interior.
4x4ord 10/16/20 05:14pm Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

If you buy a new vehicle today and you buy a new vehicle in 10 years you are set for 20 years. If you trade every 5 years you will have 4 new trucks in the same time frame. I really think the first five years depreciation will be more than the second five years. And I think many are actually getting six, even seven year loans and if that is the case we are looking more in the 12 to 14 year trade in as far as I am concerned. Read plenty of stories posted about trading in at 3 to 5 years over and over and I don't know how they do it except they must pull down more cash. At the end of 20 years you have a ten year old vehicle one way vs a 5 year old the other. You need to make sure you start and stop your two scenarios at equal points .... so if you want to take it to 20 years then the best is end with a new truck in the garage at the end of 20 years... But why not just take it to 10 years ending with a new truck in the garage in both scenarios?
4x4ord 10/15/20 05:47pm Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

If you keep the vehicle twice as long as the loan you should be fine. I think if you do a little figuring you'll come to realize it's not going to make as much difference as what you might be thinking. No matter how you slice it if you buy an new vehicle today and another new vehicle 10 years from today it's going to cost you fairly similar dollars to buying a new vehicle today ..... trade it in 5 years and then trade again in 10 years.
4x4ord 10/15/20 05:09pm Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

I think it costs me about $6000 per year to keep my truck relatively new. Part of that 6000 per year goes toward building some equity. So if I keep throwing $6k toward a truck every year in 10 years from now I might have a $95000 vehicle in my garage. If on the other hand I were to sell my current truck for 65k and buy a $15000 beater I could start an investment fund with $50k. If my $15000 beater happened to provide excellent service for 10 years and I was able to add $5k to my investment every year I could expect in 10 years to have a $5000 truck in the garage and $147,000 in my investment. (Assuming a 5% return on investment) So whether I drive a beater or a new truck for the next 10 years is not going to make much difference to my retirement. However, for someone in his 20s or 30s the math would become hugely different.
4x4ord 10/15/20 09:16am Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

Rule of thumb on how much to tie up in vehicles from Dave Ramsey, is that no more than half your annual income should be tied up in things with wheels or motors. So if you make $100k only have 50k worth of cars, campers, and boats. Paying cash works fine for me, and keeps me from swapping vehicles every few years, writing a check for $50k is much more painful than signing for a payment for go up $50. Probably good advice although I think it would be likely that few of us on this forum live by that rule. I believe people who manage their money well can save for what matters to them. I’d like to know if Dave has a rule of thumb for the maximum percentage of a persons net worth that he recommends be tied up in things with wheels or motors?
4x4ord 10/14/20 02:11am Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

I have never seen that kind of interest rate on land or mortgage loan and I have an 830 credit score. Type in Alberta mortgage rates into your browser ..... you’ll likely be surprised.
4x4ord 10/13/20 03:43pm Tow Vehicles
RE: The price of new trucks is beyond comprehension!

Shiner I agree with you that land is often a good investment so I might borrow money to buy land but not to buy a truck. That is not a wise decision. It is better to pay cash for the land since land loans are generally around 5% with excellent credit. Auto loan's are around 2-3% with excellent credit. So it would be best to pay cash with the land since you are paying more interest. The standard return on investment in a low risk stock/bond market account such as 401K. IRA, and so on is 6-7%. So the land will cost you 5%, the vehicle will cost you 2-3%, and the investment will gain you 6-7% on average. Paying cash for the land will save you more money than paying cash for the truck, but they both will not save you enough to overcome the standard amount ROI you would make on investing the money. Of course this all assumes that you have excellent credit above 700 and can get the very best rates. If not and the interest rate is greater than standard ROI, then it would be better to pay cash. However, if this the case then you have other issues that might need to be addressed. The last land purchase we made was at 1.8% interest... The previous owner held the mortgage. It is not likely that I'm going to be borrowing money at 5% interest ever.
4x4ord 10/13/20 01:58pm Tow Vehicles
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