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RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^^ The thing is pulling an 18000 lb rv down the highway at 70 mph is light work. At 2000 rpm the 2020 Powerstroke can make approximately 380 HP. Even if you have an RV that requires 180 HP to tow it down the highway at 70 mph, why would you want your truck geared such that the engine revs to an rpm where it is able to produce over double the required HP? 4.30 gears are too deep for us RVers, especially when they are offering us a 10 speed transmission. If you have a 10 speed transmission and 3.55 gears and find yourself towing against a wind or in light hills and find the transmission is dropping out of 10th too often for your liking, you can simply lock out 10th gear. The 10th gear in the 10R140 is the same as 6th in my 68RFE. I also have 3.42 gears. I get better fuel mileage if I put mine in 5th(which is about 8th in the 10R140) towing my 14k trailer. I used to tow it in 6th down to the same 160 mile route to the coast(which is mostly flat) the first few years I had the truck. About three years ago I started towing it in 5th, and my app calculated numbers fuel mileage shows that I averaged better fuel mile towing in 5th than I do 6th. My truck can easily tow it in 6th, but I noticed that I had to put the engine under more load than I did in 6th. My fuel rail pressure pressure was much higher on average along with my EGT's and boost in 6th than 5th. Line pressure in my trans is lower to since it is not trying to keep the clutch of such a low gear together. This inturn lower trans temps. I've never seen a brake specific fuel consumption graph that supports what you're claiming on a stock engine. Gearing up and throttling down saves fuel under light load conditions. I wonder if your aftermarket program is over fueling at low rpm and high throttle position to produce high torque at the expense of engine efficiency? My truck was tuned withing 30k miles and towed with it for at least one year before I switched to towing in 5th. My brother also has a 2014 just like I do that was 100% as of a few weeks ago and saw the same results I did. Cummins power spec states that the 6.7L is most effeicnt between 1,800 and 2,000 rpms when towing. That is what what Cummins tuned/design the cam/turbo and rest of the engine for. Can't speak for the Powerstroke though since every engine is tuned/designed differently. I remember Cummins used to publish this kind of data below, but I haven't seen one of these charts below(for the 5.9L) in a long time. I will try to find one for the 6.7L. I would wager it would show some similar as below. https://i.postimg.cc/9Fb2vZhg/5-9-L-Chart.png height=800 width=650 This is very useful info but it needs to be interpreted properly. So the 5.9 was capable of achieving its best fuel economy at 2000 rpm BUT that is under heavy load. Under heavy load it was able to make 175 hp at 2000 rpm. If its fuel consumption was measured at 2000 rpm and it was only loaded to 50% of its capability it certainly would have been using more fuel than .334 lbs per hphr. I'm talking about slowing an engine down under light load conditions to improve fuel economy. If that old Cummins had a demand on it of 80 hp, I would call that a light load, It could easily produce 80 hp at 1500 rpm and I would be willing to bet it would achieve better fuel economy producing 80 hp while running at 1500 rpm than it would running 2000 rpm with a 80 hp demand on it. The new Powerstroke is a totally different animal. At 1600 rpm it can produce 320 HP.... 380 hp at 2000 rpm. I am saying 175 hp demand on a new Powerstroke engine qualifies as a very light load. It doesn't need anywhere near 2000 rpm to produce 175 HP. In other words 175 HP to the new Powerstroke is like 80 HP was to the old 5.9 Cummins. And I think it is very few RVs that even require 175 HP to pull them down the highway at 70 mph. So I'll stick with my claim that 4.30 gears are not the right gears for RVers wanting a new Powerstroke. If you want a F450 for the wide front axle it is understandable but the 4.30 axle unfortunately comes with it.
4x4ord 08/27/20 02:44pm Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^^ The thing is pulling an 18000 lb rv down the highway at 70 mph is light work. At 2000 rpm the 2020 Powerstroke can make approximately 380 HP. Even if you have an RV that requires 180 HP to tow it down the highway at 70 mph, why would you want your truck geared such that the engine revs to an rpm where it is able to produce over double the required HP? 4.30 gears are too deep for us RVers, especially when they are offering us a 10 speed transmission. If you have a 10 speed transmission and 3.55 gears and find yourself towing against a wind or in light hills and find the transmission is dropping out of 10th too often for your liking, you can simply lock out 10th gear. The 10th gear in the 10R140 is the same as 6th in my 68RFE. I also have 3.42 gears. I get better fuel mileage if I put mine in 5th(which is about 8th in the 10R140) towing my 14k trailer. I used to tow it in 6th down to the same 160 mile route to the coast(which is mostly flat) the first few years I had the truck. About three years ago I started towing it in 5th, and my app calculated numbers fuel mileage shows that I averaged better fuel mile towing in 5th than I do 6th. My truck can easily tow it in 6th, but I noticed that I had to put the engine under more load than I did in 6th. My fuel rail pressure pressure was much higher on average along with my EGT's and boost in 6th than 5th. Line pressure in my trans is lower to since it is not trying to keep the clutch of such a low gear together. This inturn lower trans temps. I've never seen a brake specific fuel consumption graph that supports what you're claiming on a stock engine. Gearing up and throttling down saves fuel under light load conditions. I wonder if your aftermarket program is over fueling at low rpm and high throttle position to produce high torque at the expense of engine efficiency?
4x4ord 08/27/20 01:16pm Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^^ The thing is pulling an 18000 lb rv down the highway at 70 mph is light work. At 2000 rpm the 2020 Powerstroke can make approximately 380 HP. Even if you have an RV that requires 180 HP to tow it down the highway at 70 mph, why would you want your truck geared such that the engine revs to an rpm where it is able to produce over double the required HP? 4.30 gears are too deep for us RVers, especially when they are offering us a 10 speed transmission. If you have a 10 speed transmission and 3.55 gears and find yourself towing against a wind or in light hills and find the transmission is dropping out of 10th too often for your liking, you can simply lock out 10th gear.
4x4ord 08/27/20 10:54am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

So 4x4ord has a point with the overall gearing (Trans od ratios and rear gears) and power the engine puts out. But What he is actually saying is the 4.30 geared Ford doesn’t “need” that low of gears and there may be a small fuel consumption advantage to the taller gears when cruising empty. I doubt you’d see any measurable difference hooked up heavy. Any small efficiency on the engine end of lower rpms will still have to drive through taller finals. Likely a wash. My old Mega is a good example of what I’m saying above. Even with taller than stock tires, the shallow OD ratio puts it at 2000rpms just a little over 60 mph and cruising at 85mph is like 2600-2700 rpms. Truck will do it all day long but I’ve driven similar trucks with a deeper OD and it seems the fuel economy is not much different. So many conditions affect fuel economy, the gearing is only a small part of the equation. Regardless of what the president of the Ram mafia says, by the numbers a new 4.30 450 Powerstroke IS king of the hill right now on all fronts when it comes to capability. Tests have been conducted on Agricultural tractors by Nebraska Tractor Tests and have shown that when 1/2 of rated HP is needed a tractor will burn nearly 30% less fuel running the engine at 80% rated engine rpm vs running at full rated rpm. The same is likely true of the Powerstroke. If 235 HP were needed to pull a very heavy trailer it should be expected that running at 2080 rpm would burn about 70% the fuel vs running the engine at 2600 rpm while running the same road speed. When less HP is required (such as what is required to pull a heavy RV .... 110 - 140 HP)running the engine at 1600 rpm could potentially save significantly more fuel. I don't disagree with you, theoretically, however, realistically, unless all the online calculators are wrong (and I'm not busting out the statics and dynamics book tonight), 24-28k gross, 96 sf frontal area at 70mph is average around 230-250hp to overcome air drag and rolling resistance. That's average. No head or side winds, no grades, etc. Yes, the new Powerstrokes make impressive HP down low, but it's not quite as rosy as it seems, IMO. And you're talking roughly 1600rpms vs 2000rpms on a F450 with 4.30s vs 3.55s. You're not going to hold 10th gear with 3.55s with any large trailer at 70mph except in a vacuum. So down it shift a gear or 2 and then pops back up when the wind stops for a second, then down when you go up the other side of a dip in the road and back up when you go down the dip, so then yo ulock it in 8th gear and there you are... Bobtail or light trailers, sure 3.55s will hold top gear all day, likely. And drop a couple/3/4 gears for the BIG loads. I agree that deep gears aren't needed except for BIG loads and even at that, with 10 cogs, there's a gear for every condition. But if you're tugging around the stuff that requires a 450 chassis, why not have the most snort behind the skinny pedal? Bet you're not saving appreciable fuel unless running light weight, but then that's not what the truck is made for with 4.30s although it'll still do 10x better than my old 6 speed with higher gears. Let's take a look at the numbers from a little different vantage point. Here is the test results of a Cummins ISX 15 liter engine: https://i.imgur.com/7Z1tcajl.jpg Running at peak HP it was able to operate at 600 maximum HP while burning 225 lbs of fuel per hour .... 0.37 lbs of fuel per HPhour. A pick up truck running a part load is not going to be able to get that kind of fuel economy but just for kicks lets say pulling a heavy RV a pick up consumes 0.4 lbs per HpHr. If at 70 mph you are getting 8 mpg in your pick up pulling a heavy RV you're probably not going to be thrilled with your mileage but even so you'll only be burning 8.75 gallons of fuel per hour. There is about 7.2 lbs of fuel in a gallon so 8.75 x 7.2 = 63 lbs of fuel per hour which means the truck was producing 63/.4 = 157 HP.
4x4ord 08/27/20 08:48am Tow Vehicles
RE: 6.7L Cummins Engine Brake

I never use mine when not towing. I sometimes don't bother with it while towing. When descending long steep grades with a heavy trailer I always use it.
4x4ord 08/25/20 07:38am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

So 4x4ord has a point with the overall gearing (Trans od ratios and rear gears) and power the engine puts out. But What he is actually saying is the 4.30 geared Ford doesn’t “need” that low of gears and there may be a small fuel consumption advantage to the taller gears when cruising empty. I doubt you’d see any measurable difference hooked up heavy. Any small efficiency on the engine end of lower rpms will still have to drive through taller finals. Likely a wash. My old Mega is a good example of what I’m saying above. Even with taller than stock tires, the shallow OD ratio puts it at 2000rpms just a little over 60 mph and cruising at 85mph is like 2600-2700 rpms. Truck will do it all day long but I’ve driven similar trucks with a deeper OD and it seems the fuel economy is not much different. So many conditions affect fuel economy, the gearing is only a small part of the equation. Regardless of what the president of the Ram mafia says, by the numbers a new 4.30 450 Powerstroke IS king of the hill right now on all fronts when it comes to capability. Tests have been conducted on Agricultural tractors by Nebraska Tractor Tests and have shown that when 1/2 of rated HP is needed a tractor will burn nearly 30% less fuel running the engine at 80% rated engine rpm vs running at full rated rpm. The same is likely true of the Powerstroke. If 235 HP were needed to pull a very heavy trailer it should be expected that running at 2080 rpm would burn about 70% the fuel vs running the engine at 2600 rpm while running the same road speed. When less HP is required (such as what is required to pull a heavy RV .... 110 - 140 HP)running the engine at 1600 rpm could potentially save significantly more fuel.
4x4ord 08/24/20 10:15pm Tow Vehicles
RE: advice on 5th wheel hitch option

$500 is too much for installation in my opinion. If it came out of your truck you should be able to install it yourself. Some of us with short box trucks have no use for a sliding hitch but I agree with you that if you get a slider it should be an auto slide. The auto slide hitches can be a little more difficult to hitch up. I am satisfied with my short box and B&W Companion. What is the advantage to the companion hitch?? It did not come out of my truck but a truck of the same year and model The Companion is a much heavier hitch but the Patriot may be heavy enough for your application. The Companion can be purchased with a base for pining to the truck bed either via B&W Turnover Ball under bed hitch or with a base designed to pin to the factory puck system. Either of these under bed systems can be easily installed but both are likely more expensive than the $500 your dealer would charge to install rails in your truck.
4x4ord 08/24/20 06:49pm Fifth-Wheels
RE: 2016 Ram short bed 6.7 diesel 2500 payload close to max

You can weigh your truck to get an accurate unladen weight if you like.... or go with an estimate if you think you have a pretty good idea of what it weighs. The 6500 lb rear axle weight rating is really a rear axle spring rating. To carry a heavier trailer, adding air bags will help. Your tires are likely rated for something like 3640 lbs each, so your rear axle with air bags could handle about 7280 lbs. The unladen rear axle weight of your truck is likely around 3500 lbs. So, if it were mine, I'd add air bags and be able to carry a 3500 lb pin weight without being concerned.
4x4ord 08/23/20 11:19am Tow Vehicles
RE: 2016 Ram short bed 6.7 diesel 2500 payload close to max

The 3500 SRW and 2500 are very similar trucks. The payload rating is limited on account of the 6000 lb rear axle rating that the 2500 gets vs the 7000 lb rating of the 3500. The axle rating is reduced on account of the spring rating. Put a set of air bags on your 2500 and it will handle your Grand Design better than the 3500 SRW with higher payload numbers.
4x4ord 08/23/20 05:39am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^4.30 gears with the 7.3 would make more sense.
4x4ord 08/22/20 08:04am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

How heavy is the heavy RV you're talking about? If you're talking about a 34000 lb RV then yes a F450 with 4.30 gears is the truck for you. If you've got a 20,000 - 25000 lb RV the F350 with 3.55 gears is going to be a much better choice. The F450 with the 10 speed transmission runs out of cruising gears at 50-60 mph. The 2020 Powerstroke makes 320 hp at 1600 rpm and it only takes about 140 hp to pull a large rv down the highway at 70 mph. The F450 would be in 10th gear at 2000 rpm doing 70 mph.
4x4ord 08/22/20 06:49am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^ I agree the F450 is an amazing tow rig but not necessarily best in all regards. I think for 2020 Ford put larger rotors on the F450 so maybe now it can stop like a Ram but in previous years the larger rotor equipped Ford couldn't stop in nearly the same distance as a Ram 3500. And the 4.30 axle in the 2020 f450 clearly puts it at a disadvantage over a 2020 f350 with 3.55 gears for an RV hauler.
4x4ord 08/21/20 11:54pm Tow Vehicles
RE: advice on 5th wheel hitch option

$500 is too much for installation in my opinion. If it came out of your truck you should be able to install it yourself. Some of us with short box trucks have no use for a sliding hitch but I agree with you that if you get a slider it should be an auto slide. The auto slide hitches can be a little more difficult to hitch up. I am satisfied with my short box and B&W Companion.
4x4ord 08/21/20 04:53pm Fifth-Wheels
RE: 5th wheel hitch

^^^ I realize my story is not an apples to apples example. The point I was hoping to get across from it was that if a well built hitch is used at double its rated capacity and something goes wrong the hitch is not likely going to fail. I would be afraid to get on an elevator if I thought I couldn't trust the rated capacity of hitch.
4x4ord 08/20/20 11:46am Fifth-Wheels
RE: 5th wheel hitch

I used a hitch rated for towing a maximum weight of 5000 lbs to tow a 40,000 lb implement. All was well until I got going a little too fast and hit a hole in the road. This caused the castor wheels on the implement to swing 180 degrees back and forth which in turn caused the implant to slam violently back and forth on my 7/8 inch hitch pin which was kind of lost in the 2 1/2 inch diameter hole on the implement's hitch. Anyway, by the time I got stopped my 8000 lb hitch had long slotted holes where the 5/8 pin coupled the hitch into the hitch receiver. I'm sure if I'd used a hitch rated for 20,000 lbs I would have been fine.:)
4x4ord 08/19/20 12:52pm Fifth-Wheels
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

Certainly didn't need a 450 for your 20k RV. My thought is you gained bigger brakes but NOT needed and tighter turning radius that honestly is not a reason to spend that much more $$$. I agree that for most the extra braking is not needed but the cost difference is really not much more for an f450 vs the F350 dually or SRW for that matter. An F450 Platinum prices out at about $88150 vs the F350 Platinum dually at about $85K and the SRW short box at about $84300.
4x4ord 08/18/20 09:14pm Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^ Your fuel economy is similar to my 2017 SRW pulling a little lighter trailer. From what I hear the 2020 Powerstroke is getting significantly better fuel economy than the outgoing engine. It really would be interesting to see how much less fuel you would have gone through had you had 3.55 gears. Nebraska tractor tests have shown that slowing a diesel engine down by 20% and gearing up for lighter loads saves between 15 and 30% on fuel. I really think Ford should offer us a choice of diff ratios in the f450 .... especially now that the engine is capable of cranking out 320 hp at 1600 rpm.
4x4ord 08/18/20 06:08am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

Yup. My 2017 Torqueshift 6r140 has a reverse ratio of 3.12 mated to a 3.55 rear end and 34" tires. The 10 speed has a reverse ratio of 4.7:1 so even if I stick with a SRW I'm not going to be backing trailers up at 35 mph much longer.
4x4ord 08/15/20 09:26pm Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

If I was going to get a Ford dually I would really wrestle with the f450. On the one hand I like the wide track front axle and 19.5 inch rims but on the other hand the 4.30 gear ratio would probably end up being a deal breaker for me even with the 10 speed. The Powerstroke has 1050 lbft of torque at 1600 rpm, Most rvers would be better off with 3.55 gears and settle for the f350 dually rather than have to run the 4.30 gears that come in the f450.
4x4ord 08/14/20 08:24am Tow Vehicles
RE: F450 vs Ram 3500 DRW tow vehicle

^^^ Ok. That makes more sense.
4x4ord 08/12/20 05:16am Tow Vehicles
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