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RE: Furnace Short-Cycling
I have an older furnace so I don't know what a vent tube is. On my 8531 you don't have to take out the furnace to get at the burner assembly. It is a PITA where the screws are way back in there. You need a magnetic screwdriver to get the screws back in!
With such a new furnace, unlikely to be faulty parts. Wasp nests possible though.
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BFL13
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03/29/20 01:04pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Battery: AGM vs. Flooded Cell
" The reason they were going to be used was their higher charge rate. It wasn't 5 times but it was closer to 2 times faster. "
I am hung up on what exactly it means to say "2 times faster"
If that means you can do a 50-90 in one hour instead of two hours, restoring the same number of AH, then how can you do that?
Using a higher charge rate is given as the way to do it. Up to a point you do get a faster re-charge by using more amps per AH size of battery bank. You do not halve the time by doubling the amps, as seen in my ugly graph. It is a diminishing returns thing. But you can do it faster up to a point as seen. (ugly graph shown below)
Also, except for Lifelines, many AGMs specify a high limit on charging rate such as my Starks which say 27 amps per 100AH. So that is no higher than what a Wet can take.
So using a higher charging rate than what a Wet can take only applies to Lifeline AGMs. And I have not seen where they are excempt from the way that higher charging rates means Bulk ends at a lower SOC. So if you did use a way high charging rate, most of the recharge would be in Absorption tapering amps AFAIK.
So you are not going to get twice as long in Bulk at the max amps of the charger to achieve your 2 times faster.
I would like to see, using a charging profile for each case, how the 2 times faster would happen, to compare with the graphs in my ugly graph set. BTW that set is about what I see charging my AGMs and Wets, roughly the same.
https://i.imgur.com/bqLvZU1l.jpg]https://i.imgur.com/bqLvZU1l.jpg
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BFL13
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03/29/20 12:21pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Installing inverter w/charger and transfer switch
It is not conflicting, but is a choice to have redundancy. Also the converter will supply 12v with no battery installed, but the inverter/ charger will not. It needs the 12v battery connected to power it up so its charger will work from 120v.
If you have your batteries out or disconnected for some reason, you can still run the 12v stuff from the converter.
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BFL13
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03/29/20 08:23am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Installing inverter w/charger and transfer switch
Thats correct, but I'm talking about the 12v side. If your looking at my diagram where I wrote positive, that wire runs from battery Positive to Jack/disconnect/brake before running to the 12v board.
Im not sure what your referring too..
In that case you need to insert a switch on the converter's pos wire before it gets to the breaker, or else re-arrange the breakers.
Breakers for air conditioning/water heater and convert will be off when on battery power. In the future I could always add a sub panel with a switch.
The transfer switches are for 120v so you can't get 240v and fry your appliances. I have a manual switch (me) that plugs the shore power cable into the inverter. I pull that out and plug it into the portable gen or to a pedestal as required. Automatic transfer switches are mostly for when you have a built in generator, but also can be used as others here are recommending.
Check your AC breaker panel. If the breaker marked CONV has just one black wire going into the bottom, then it can be used the switch for the converter. If it has two black wires going into the bottom, you need to find what circuit that second black wire is on. It might be for outlets you want to stay live when on inverter.
BTW don't trust the OEM markings on the breaker panel. Check each one by turning it off to see if it is really for what it says. Same with the 12v fuses. ( "Hard to get good help these days")
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BFL13
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03/29/20 07:50am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Battery: AGM vs. Flooded Cell
Deka flooded Vabs is 14.4-14.7v also higher than their AGM Vabs
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Renewable-Energy-Charging-Parameters-1913.pdf
However, that 14.4-14.7 is lower than for these Stark AGMs at 14.6-14.8 ( my 100AH Starks say 14.5-14.9 same as those UB121000s)
http://www.wegosolar.com/products.php?product=SKR%252d125AGM-Stark-AGM-12V-Solar-Battery-Sealed-125A
Which only proves again that there is no rule that all AGMs use lower voltages than flooded. BUT it does show again that you really need to look up the charging specs for whatever battery you have.
If your charger has AGM, GEL, and WET settings where the AGM voltage is lower than the WET voltage, and your AGM spec is actually higher like the above examples, then you would know to use the WET setting with your AGMs. (If that WET setting matches)
Best thing is to have an adjustable voltage charger so you can meet any spec any battery you buy might have.
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BFL13
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03/28/20 10:51pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Installing inverter w/charger and transfer switch
In that case you need to insert a switch on the converter's pos wire before it gets to the breaker, or else re-arrange the breakers.
For clarity
120vac does not have a positive, it does have a Hot and a Neutral
The neutral being the white wire
The hot being the one connected to the circuit breaker
Normally in RVs, it is a black wire
,
Thanks for correcting that Mr Wiz. I messed up there.
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BFL13
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03/28/20 09:52pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Battery: AGM vs. Flooded Cell
My 100AH AGMs are the same as these only different brand on them:
http://www.bestconverter.com/UB121000-100-AH-Deep-Cycle-_p_293.html#.Xn_QjUnsZpw
The charging specs for "cycle use" are 14.5- 14.9 volts (at 77F) When it is 35F that becomes 15.x with temp comp.
So for these AGMs the charging voltage is the same as for Trojan 6s and for some other 6s too.
It is those Lifelines that seem to have created the 14.4v myth for AGMs just because it is 14.4 for Lifelines.
EDIT--here is an interesting review of that above battery, comparing it with some others for deep cycle usage.
https://www.deepcyclemarinebattery.com/reviews/upg-ub121000-deep-cycle-agm-battery.html
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BFL13
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03/28/20 04:39pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Battery: AGM vs. Flooded Cell
You can't charge any faster than your charger's max amps.
There is a slight time saving once you get to the Absorption Stage where the AGM has a little more acceptance rate per SOC, but Bulk Stage timing is about the same.
Some figures from past examples on this topic, noting the %SOC when Bulk ends using various charging rates. (The lower the charging rate, the higher the %SOC when Bulk ends after a time at constant max charger amps)
Wets- 32% and 65%SOC
AGM- 40% and 63%SOC
Wets-19% and 72.5%SOC
AGM- 15% and 75% SOC
So if you are off-grid doing 50-80s you are going to shut off the gen not long after Absorption starts anyway, and you will not realize much of any theoretical time saving by having AGMs.
Solar usually has a very low charging rate, so a high SOC when amps start to taper. This is true with Wets and AGMs. Hard to say if you are any more likely to get to 100% before dark with either type.
Li batts do shine in this regard. At 100% charging rate, they reach 65% SOC when Bulk ends, and at a less stressful (and recommended rate with Battle Borns) 50% charging rate, Bulk ends nearer 80% SOC. Solar with Li means you won't see much of that faster charge with them either due to the low charging rate, unless you have a very large solar array.
We were looking at all this a while back when discussing the wild claim seen in advertising, that AGMs charged "five times faster" :)
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BFL13
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03/28/20 04:26pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Battery: AGM vs. Flooded Cell
Not with those, but note the AGM requirement to get them full every so often (often as possible), which means charging at 14.4ish volts constant ( with no dropping to 13.6v before you get there like some converters will) to 0.5 amps per 100AH of battery. Now you can go to 13.6v.
So how are you going to observe that? I can see the amps taper down to that with my Trimetric monitor. Point being that going AGM also means getting an ammeter you can monitor.
You also need a charger that will hold the voltage at the right level until amps are down to spec.
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BFL13
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03/28/20 10:43am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Installing inverter w/charger and transfer switch
Some Rvs have the converter on the same breaker as some outlets, so you can't just turn off the breaker to shut off the converter if you need those outlets to be live from inverter.
In that case you need to insert a switch on the converter's pos wire before it gets to the breaker, or else re-arrange the breakers.
Easiest if the converter plugs into an outlet. Just unplug it.
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BFL13
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03/27/20 01:23pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Installing inverter w/charger and transfer switch
https://tops-stars.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/wiring-diagram-for-rv-travel-trailer-wiring-diagram-inspiring-car-pertaining-to-rv-inverter-wiring-diagram.jpg
Hope you can open the image. If theres a charger and ats in the inverter should I disconnect my existing one? As I said the existing battery position is running to the disconnect, brake and power jack. Should I attach the positive wire to the new one running to the inverter and should it be before the fuse?
The emergency breakaway positive wire from the pull switch to the battery is not to be fused and should go direct, not via another wire that might be fused.
Your battery to DC fuse panel wire stays as is, not to the inverter pos input then on to the DC panel. Why do that? Your pos wires now on the battery for the slides and jacks also stay as is.
You fuse the fat pos wire for the inverter/charger's input(for inverter)/output(for charger) near the battery pos post. Fuse size in amps per installation instructions.
IMO you should keep your converter as is too so you can use it instead of the charger in the inverter/charger at times. The inverter charger has to be connected and on with the battery bank to operate it. You can't run the charger part when there is no battery like you can with a converter to still get 12v when your batteries are out for servicing or whatever.
Not clear, but sounds like your inverter will be too far from the battery bank to prevent voltage drop enough so you can run the MW or other high amp appliances even with fat wire. Also no word on the size of the battery bank, which needs to be about 400AH or so to do any good.
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BFL13
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03/27/20 10:31am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Furnace Short-Cycling
Could it be a bad flame sensor?
Newer furnaces use the circuit board somehow along with the single probe and neg sparker for flame sensing. Older ones used a third probe that was the flame sensor. I suppose it could be a fault in the board to make for "bad sensor". I am not a furnace tech.
Besides what you have already done in the OP, if not done, IMO do a complete burner clean out as what to try, including the orifice. Check the wire connections on the blade terminals are tight for the probes too.
We need the furnace pros to jump in here! :)
"The older boards used a separate flame sense electrode, also known as remote sensing. Now they sense the flame through the spark gap, aka local sensing. You can sub a local sense board for remote, but not vice versa.
-- Chris Bryant "
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BFL13
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03/26/20 02:29pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Furnace Short-Cycling
Seconds suggests the fame sensor not sensing flame long enough. If that is because not enough air to support a flame, unless door open then perhaps the burner area is plogged up. Can happen with wasp nests, eg.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 01:25pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Furnace Short-Cycling
How short is the short cycling? If in seconds it can be the flame sensing not working right. If minutes it can be the limit switch not working right.
There are a couple of furnace guys on here who might be along to answer your questions.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 11:58am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Would solar be effective in the midwest?
I got in three days early last week where I would have had to use the gen and charger every day, but got in some solar so didn't have to use the gen until the second day. So solar extended my time between gen charging by a day. Or by 100% if you want to make that look good.
A couple days after getting home they closed the provincial parks for camping because of the Covid-19 thing, so am stuck on the computer at home getting in trouble. They are letting the local dog-walkers in the park (Rathtrevor) all day same as usual, so I don't see how camping overnight can spread the virus particularly. Phooey.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 11:50am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Would solar be effective in the midwest?
I don't understand what possible settings you can have on a solar controller that would alter that..You talking to me?
No, the guy who thinks the controller sets the battery acceptance rate instead of the battery doing that for itself.
The fact that you don't understand only means that you don't understand; not that you have a valid point. ;)
You are invited to explain or link to an explanation of what you mean about solar controllers so the rest of us can try to understand it.
Otherwise you are saying something against what is well known about battery acceptance rates and charging profiles.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 11:17am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Would solar be effective in the midwest?
Solar is just a way to extend the time between generator/charger recharging.
I highly doubt that statement.
I use just solar to charge my GC2's. I have never used a generator to charge my 8 year old batteries and they are still going strong. I boondock 99% of the time.
Right, so your time with solar between gen/charger charging is long enough so you don't have to use the gen before getting to shore power again.
That can be all summer or for several days in winter, whatever the scenario is. Including how many batteries in the bank, and your daily usage.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 11:12am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Would solar be effective in the midwest?
I don't understand what possible settings you can have on a solar controller that would alter that..You talking to me?
No, the guy who thinks the controller sets the battery acceptance rate instead of the battery doing that for itself.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 11:03am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Would solar be effective in the midwest?
Lead acid batteries can accept "full charge" well past 80% SOC
It is all about the "charging rate", which is the amps/AH of battery bank. At any charging voltage, the lower the charging rate, the higher the SOC before amps taper at the end of Bulk and VV.
Solar often has lower max amps wrt the size of the battery bank, so that makes for a low charging rate, and so the end of Bulk in the 90s for SOC.
I don't understand what possible settings you can have on a solar controller that would alter that. The battery type settings usually only change the high voltage set point, which can change the amps being accepted. Higher voltage can mean more amps at any given SOC if the solar can provide more amps. Not going to change the charging rate very much between 14.4 and 14.8 eg.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 10:49am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Converter and Battery Question
When you also get your battery monitor such as a Trimetric it will have its 500a shunt for your negatives.
Now the battery to frame ground wire is disconnected from the battery and goes to the side of the shunt that has all the other neg wires, and one fat wire goes from the other end of the shunt to the battery.
That still has the battery neg grounded to the frame, but you get the info to the monitor by having the frame amps through the shunt.
With the inverter, converter, solar controller, and frame ground, all to the shunt, it will stack too many lug terminals under the shunt's bolt. So use a neg buss to collect the various neg inputs and then a fat wire to the shunt from the buss.
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BFL13
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03/26/20 10:26am |
Tech Issues
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