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RE: Refrigerator draw on LP mode

The 1991 TC we got recently has a brand new 2410 the previous owner had put in, that does not use 12v. The OEM 2410 lost its ammonia (smelled really bad he said). So you can still get them.
BFL13 12/02/20 08:08am Tech Issues
RE: Refrigerator draw on LP mode

Had that fridge in our 5er. Measured 51AH in three days of fridge on gas, off grid. So 17AH a day. This was with ambients around 75F day. 55F night, no shade, nice weather. That was while we were away for three days, so no door opening.
BFL13 12/01/20 05:09pm Tech Issues
RE: Anybody run Lithium battery bank with solar

You need 200AH a day and have two 225AH AGMs. I will guess that they are 6 volt so your bank is 225AH. You can use half of that for "usable", so what you need is two more of those 6s so you can use 225 a day and recharge. Solar won't do any of that on an overcast day, so you have to be able to do it with no solar--especially with cpap in the picture. It doesn't matter if they are Li or not, you need way more AH of a battery bank. And now you need to recharge that 200AH daily. Not likely to get that all done every day, if ever what with clouds etc. so the usual drill is generator and charger for most of it in say two hours of gen time, then solar to do the rest all day after the gen is shut down. Doing that 200 from 50% SOC in two hours would be say a 100 amp charger running from a 3000w generator, to get say 150 done and then you need your solar to do another 50 or else leave the gen on for another two hours (amps now tapering, so gen time stretches out) If those are 225AH 12s then they must be those monster 8Ds and you then already have enough bank. You still need to recharge what you used though. Li is not going to change any of that, just cost you a ton of money. (Unless you believe in the "usable AH " smoke and mirrors where they try to say one 100AH Li is the same as two 100AH Flooded for usable AH--there is some advantage there, but not near double ) You also need an ammeter to be sure your AGMs are fully recharged--amps must taper to 0.5a/100AH of bank with voltage at 14.4 till you get to there. I bet you don't do that and now your AGMs are undercharged and sulphated (hope I am wrong!) Sorry to be a party-pooper! Ignore what does not apply.
BFL13 12/01/20 02:32pm Tech Issues
RE: pure sine wave 1000 watts! but only 500 watts per plug

Here is this topic from 11 years ago :) As it says, I did talk to Sunforce tech support and confirmed it was 500 each not 1000 from one. Apparently this newer? one is the same way. Some like to run a fridge while driving off inverter and that needs a 600w or so inverter IIRC, so some buy a 1000w for that job. This one could not do that job, eg.
BFL13 12/01/20 10:09am Tech Issues
RE: pure sine wave 1000 watts! but only 500 watts per plug

Hi BFL13, Did yours fry right away--or did it just slowly die? I ran my 700w Danby MW a few times when it showed the yellow overload light at 1050w ISTR, but kept running ok. Then one time it let the smoke out. I now have an RCA 700w MW on a MSW inverter in the TC. That pulls 65 amps from the battery bank instead of the usual 100 (divide by 10), being MSW instead of PSW. It takes a little longer to get the job done, but not so's you'd notice in real life. PSW is only vital for some things like electric blankets, but if the price is right, why not have PSW? I only read the first two reviews. The second one seemed to have a better idea how the thing worked wrt 500 vs 1000, but could be wrong.
BFL13 11/30/20 01:45pm Tech Issues
RE: pure sine wave 1000 watts! but only 500 watts per plug

PT note the reviews. This Sunforce has the same thing as the old Sunforce they used to sell at Can Tire, in that it has two 500w plug-ins for a total of 1000W . Can Tire went to a different brand that does all 1000w from one plug-in. (ISTR you have one of those---I fried mine as reported years ago running it at 1050w too many times) Still, if your can work with this, it is a very good price for what it can do.
BFL13 11/30/20 11:37am Tech Issues
RE: Floating vs Storage Voltage Question

Still does not explain what is meant by "floating voltage" in the battery specs. PD ISTR has the feature that if you are using the RV it will be at 13.6 "normal" and after a period of no (or is it low--how low?) "activity" it drops to 13.2v. If you go in the Rv and turn on a light or two it goes back to 13.6. All those on long term shore power living in their RVs would be at 13.6 and their batteries are not disconnected. If you keep your RV at home plugged in between trips what are you supposed to do? Is that "storage"? I go in ours a lot to do upgrades or whatever. I could disconnect the batts and be on converter but I have not been doing that. According to Trojan, with flooded and once home and recharged, I should not leave them on Float if using the RV next week, but I should if not using it next week. If I have AGMs then I should not go on a float once they are recharged unless the next trip is more than a month later. On solar full-time off grid, the controller will drop to 13.6 after it stays at 14.x for a time. You don't want to be at 14.x overly long, but you do want to be there till the batts are full. I tried dropping to 13.2 in the afternoon after the batts were full and it was unsat. Got minus amps showing and voltage 13.1. RV was still being used. Turned it back to 13.6 and no problem. I think that is why they have 13.6 as "normal" So what is "standby use" where they want you to do "float charging"? Is there a draw on a standby battery from what it is connected to in a UPS scenario? Otherwise, why choose the higher float voltage instead of the storage voltage? My SiO2 modified AGM battery guide says do not leave it with a small load on it or it will sulphate slowly. So would any battery in an RV with the disconnect open but the LP alarm still on.--if you don't take the wires off the battery and have a small load like that on, should you be at 13.2 or is that "using" the RV so you should be at 13.6? The various battery guides are clear on what to do with a disconnected battery, but are not clear at all IMO what an RVer should do between trips. Even winter storage is confusing where some storage yards have power and some don't and with those some guys use solar "maintenance charging" So that's another one--"maintenance" to go with "storage" and "floating"
BFL13 11/30/20 10:12am Tech Issues
RE: Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??

I prefer the screw on lids instead of the linked type. I usually have wires across the batteries and it is easier to take the individual caps off to check the batteries without having to remove a wire.
BFL13 11/29/20 07:14pm Tech Issues
RE: Floating vs Storage Voltage Question

Interesting about that US Battery float voltage for flooded at 2.17 per cell. Their AGM is 2.23 Meanwhile Trojan is at 2.25 for both types, and East Penn (Deka) is at 2.24-2.26 for AGM and 2.30-2.35 (13.8-14.10v) for flooded. Seems they all agree on AGMs but are all over the map for flooded batts. We have had many posts about how 13.8 is too high and how you have to keep adding water at that voltage, saying 13.2 is required to stop that. But the battery specs are as above for 77F. EDIT--Note that Trojan says not to float floodeds if they are used more than once a week, but say for AGMs it is if they are used more than once a month.
BFL13 11/29/20 04:45pm Tech Issues
RE: Floating vs Storage Voltage Question

Sure, but 13.2v at 85F is like 13.7 at 50F so 13.2 is way low for 50F. The question is why store (float?) at 13.2 when the spec is for 13.6 at 77F Randy still has this float voltage table-scroll down, eg. I think there are better tables but gives the idea sort of.
BFL13 11/29/20 03:18pm Tech Issues
Floating vs Storage Voltage Question

Moved this from another thread to open the topic generally. Question was if PD converters with the 13.2 storage voltage were compatible with floating voltage specs at 13.5 and above. ---------------- Many (all?) battery specs have the same floating voltages (2.25 a cell or so) My AGMs did and also the flooded batts I have had. PD's are used successfully with all those other batteries according to various reports Trojan eg, has 2.25 too, and says not to float either flooded or AGM at all if they will be charged frequently. ("cyclic use"?) So the PD's "storage" mode at only 13.2v is confusing. Is "storage" really "float" or something else? Float is supposed to just make up for self-discharge so 13.5-13-8 typical seems high for that, unless it is GC2 6s? Resting voltage of a full flooded is more like 12.8 so 13.2 is more above that. My ordinary AGMs spec resting at full was 13.0 though, and nobody said a PD is no good with AGMs. Now I am not sure what "floating" vs "storage" is all about. Anybody explain? Thanks.
BFL13 11/29/20 03:00pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 Battery -UPDATE 4 (MW at 20% SOC)

Actually, many (all?) battery specs have the same floating voltage as these SiO2s. (2.25 a cell) My AGMs did and also the flooded batts I have had. PD's are used successfully with all those other batteries according to various reports Moved to its own thread----
BFL13 11/29/20 07:32am Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 Battery -UPDATE 4 (MW at 20% SOC) I am not an expert so it is just my opinion, but I don't see why sitting at 13.2 instead of 13.45 (see above charging info) would matter for RV work between trips or even for a few months. You can leave the battery partially charged for long periods no harm, and the worst that 13.2 could do is fail to keep up with a slow discharge. It looks like leaving them hooked up to the LP and stereo and disconnect open is the worst thing where it says they will get a little sulphated over time. In that case 13.2 between trips must be better, and you also get a shot of 14.4 every so often. RV use does not match "cyclic use" unless full timing or "standby use" , so you can do whatever makes sense IMO.
BFL13 11/28/20 11:00pm Tech Issues
RE: Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??

My point on SG was that you added the water, so that dilutes the acid from what it would have been after a full recharge. Now you will have to do some cycles to get that right. Recharging also heats up the electrolyte, expanding it, which is less dense and that is why you let the battery sit till it cools off to get the proper SG reading (which will be higher when cooler) Yes, 1.300 is the "new 1.275" it seems. Higher SG means faster eating of the plates, so you will need new batteries sooner. But it has its good points too.
BFL13 11/28/20 07:12pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 Battery -UPDATE 4 (MW at 20% SOC)

The MW draw vs battery AH has two things: 1. the discharge rate wrt what the battery is designed to handle without harm (I think I warped the plates of my AGMs from that) 2. the voltage drop that will alarm off the inverter. A pair of 6s will keep the voltage above 11v alarm down to about 75% while four will let you keep the MW on till about 50% SOC. A MW draw of say 120 amps on 235 AH bank is just too high for ordinary batteries. 120 amps on 470AH is ok. The SiO2 feature I am using it for is that it can take a high discharge rate. It even holds its voltage up fairly well, but not as well as Li batts do down to low SOCs. That feature means you can do big draws in the TC with SiO2 where there is limited space for batteries, such as four 6s. Same thing with Li for that plus an advantage in being of lighter weight that might matter in a small RV. However, the Li is way more expensive and it has the cold weather issue to be overcome (heat pads or whatever) Also it has the BMS to complicate things, which SiO2 doesn't need. You have to get your priorities straight with all that money at stake. Most folks don't need Li or SiO2 to get the job done. If the TC we got were not so awkward for battery space and inverter space, I would have been able to do the job with ordinary batteries. Way I look at it now looking back at buying this TC, it just adds to the initial (low) cost. Rationalizing after the fact is the way to stay sane. :)
BFL13 11/28/20 06:53pm Tech Issues
RE: Solar panel

"Faster" means restoring the same AH in less time. Since H is shorter, A must be higher to get the same AH. The scenario has to be where A is higher than it would be charging ordinary batteries over that shorter time period. Plus as mentioned, you have to specify the SOC range. It can be no faster doing a 50-80, but faster doing a 50-90 due to the 80-90 being still at max amps in one but tapering amps in the other. Amps can't be higher if the charger is current limited at its max amps over the SOC range in the scenario for the ordinary batteries just by switching to the Li. You can add amps if you have more chargers, where the ordinary batts won't accept more but the Li will.
BFL13 11/28/20 02:15pm Tech Issues
RE: Solar panel

An Li does not charge "faster" unless the Li will accept the charger's max amps, but the ordinary battery bank of the same AH size won't. Solar is generally a low amp business, with all day to recharge. So any so-called "faster charging with Li" is not going to be realized with solar recharging. You would need a much higher amp recharge scenario to get any of that. A pair of flooded batts at 200AH at 50% can accept 60 amps no sweat. 60 amps means a lot of solar and would probably be at 60 only around lunchtime anyway. There can be good reasons to have Li, but the "faster charging" claim needs to be very scenario specific.
BFL13 11/28/20 12:34pm Tech Issues
RE: Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??

The OP seems to have missed his first chance to recharge the new batts as soon as he got them home and get his "baseline SG" as the target SG for future recharges to True Full. The new batts would not be at True Full after being on the shelf. They need to be charged right up and even equalizing would be a good move when getting them home. Doing that now will likely make them spill some water, but it still needs doing. With the added water, the SG will not be quite correct as the baseline, so have to wait till the next cycle or two and then get to True Full for a good baseline SG. How can you tell if you are at True Full if you don't know the SG for that? you ask. One way is with an ammeter. When amps stop flowing after tapering to zero, that is full. There is SG lag so you have to wait till the battery cools down to get the baseline SG. Otherwise just do an equalize after the next recharge and take the SG and then see the SG after the equalize after that one. If it is higher, see the next one. Eventually, you will know how high the SG can get. If you do that on the first recharge when getting home and do not then add water to screw up the SG, then it is easier--but too late for that. Doesn't matter for now--but it does matter if you don't get them to True Full ASAP so the sulphation they have now does not harden.
BFL13 11/28/20 12:12pm Tech Issues
RE: Convert Pilot WH to Electric Start?

The lighters are cheap but you have to buy so many! After a few times they have lots of fuel showing in the view port, but it takes two hands to pull the trigger, if it will pull at all. So now you need three hands, one for the pilot light/main burner and two for the festering BBQ lighter. Another hand to hold your flashlight to see where to put the lighter in there by the "flower". You could hold that in your teeth though. We just love the pilot light WH. :)
BFL13 11/27/20 07:46pm Tech Issues
RE: SiO2 Battery -UPDATE 4 (MW at 20% SOC)

Edit-- might be some confusion! I did not say that it was only $300 more to get the same AH. Obviously 230 AH is more than 100AH. I already have one SiO2 (expensive) so adding another to that would also be expensive to get 200 instead of the 230 for the 6s there now. (but hard to get at--unsat) It is just that if I left the 6s in the TC I would need to get two for the MH to get back to having four there. Clear as mud? ------------- Not clear what Azimuth is doing for price just now. I think the prices are coming down somewhat. They still have a bunch on the shelf they just got in that are not exactly flying of the shelf. I found that if you get hold of them and do your best bazaar routine, you might get a deal. I would not buy them at all unless you had a special need that only they can fill compared with ordinary AGMs. I hope I have made that clear in this thread--not suggesting they are better in every case. In fact IMO, probably few cases. But when needs must--yes. My special case was I needed to run the microwave at fairly high amps wrt to the battery bank AH, and the batteries were hard to get at. So Wets are no good being hard to get at, and I had no luck before with AGMs doing that work, where they apparently warped their plates the way I was doing it, and want to keep doing that. (I have no trouble in the C doing that with four 6s, but can't do that in the TC with limited vented space for batts you can get at) Ta Da! The SiO2 is the right answer for the TC. But not enough AH for the other loads to last a few days as with regular camping work. No problem as DW was only going to be day-running or maybe one overnight at the dog training place. Then of course-- she moved the goal posts and wants to be able to stay longer, but still use the TC instead of the C because of parking space. Well drat! So out comes the Visa card for another SiO2 to make up the AH and still be ok where it is hard to get at. At least that puts all four 6s back in the C where they belong. Oh well. :) Just how it is in the big city! :)
BFL13 11/27/20 06:02pm Tech Issues
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