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RE: Xantrex Freedom 458 - Equalizing at 16.3 Volts

Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions. I believe I may have solved the problem. The battery tray on this new-to-me coach, makes it difficult to see the furthest interior battery. The positive and negative house leads are connected to the furthest front of the 3. While cleaning up the tray, I removed all the batteries and discovered a second set of positive and negative house leads connected to the innermost battery. My last rig had only one set of leads connecting the bank to the coach. My wheels began to turn. Isolating the negative lead from the front battery appears to cut power to the 12V system of the house. But I discovered the bank was still receiving a charge after pulling that negative. So it seems a little more than likely that the Xantrex has its own, separate leads between it and the bank. Therefore, by pulling the outer negative, I should be cutting power to the coach while maintaining power from the Xantrex in any charge mode... including Equalize. Thanks again, K
KendallP 04/10/21 11:23am Class A Motorhomes
Xantrex Freedom 458 - Equalizing at 16.3 Volts

Solved in post #5 Hello, folks, A friend in Tech Issues suggested I repost this here. I was surprised to find my advanced search for both the last year and the archives turned up no results, so... This unit has an equalizing mode that runs at a proper, but hefty 16.3V. And it has the current to back it up. Which is pretty sweet. But... My question is in regard to the electronics in a 2004 MH. Can they comfortably withstand this? Or is it enough to open all the breakers except the Xantrex? Or should I pretend the mode doesn't exist, disconnect the negative and equalize with a portable only? Or....
KendallP 04/08/21 12:28pm Class A Motorhomes
RE: Xantrex Freedom 458 - Equalizing at 16.3V

Maybe somebody over in the Class A forum would know. Must be a common situation. Maybe... for the few who pay attention to such details. I'll repost it there. Thanks.
KendallP 04/08/21 12:25pm Tech Issues
RE: Xantrex Freedom 458 - Equalizing at 16.3V

The fridge limit is 15.4 and light bulbs burn out faster with higher voltage. Usual instructions for E is to isolate the batteries from the rest of the 12v system in the RV. You would need another source of 12v to run the rig if it is being used. Well not only that, but... if I isolate the bank from the coach... how is the Xantrex going to provide it that equalizing power?
KendallP 04/08/21 11:49am Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Polypropylene holds heat. Your lead is telling the truth. If the weak sister cells fall on their butt again it's time to start shopping. This morning one post was 55 and the other 54F. Learn something new every day... if you're hangin' out here. Would have been interesting to have measured the posts when the charge was still on and the case was so hot. I'm betting they would have been quite a bit hotter, but I'm not willing to make another attempt just to find out. And yeah... that temperature increase occurred at about 14.9V... on a cool spring evening. So for 90 bucks, I've made the decision to use it to erase my core charge. Thanks, old bean.
KendallP 04/08/21 11:47am Tech Issues
Xantrex Freedom 458 - Equalizing at 16.3V

Hey gang, I was surprised to find my advanced search for both the last year and the archives turned up no results, so... This unit has an equalizing mode that runs at a proper, but hefty 16.3V. And it has the current to back it up. Which is pretty sweet. But... My question is in regard to the electronics in a 2004 MH. Can they comfortably withstand this? Or is it enough to open all the breakers except the Xantrex? Or should I pretend the mode doesn't exist, disconnect the negative and equalize with a portable only? Or...?
KendallP 04/08/21 11:20am Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Both terminals approximately 80F Warmest part of the case is now 99F
KendallP 04/07/21 11:41pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Echo Wilco Back in a bit...
KendallP 04/07/21 11:38pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

If amps tapered down to 6 and then started to climb, that could mean amps are going to heat. You could have some excitement! :( If that happens with AGMs that get down to full and then amps start back up, it is all heat rising in a sealed batt, so you must stop! With that batt, IMO just stop fooling with it and take the core rebate. Speaking of AGMs, in one of my set-ups, I decided it was safe to use them inside as long as I didn't over-charge them, so that gave me lots of choices where batts could go. Sure! You can hang AGMs upside down and sideways if need be. Now in the past, I've had situations where the current began to climb and it meant I was making progress. I love a good challenge and relish the subsequent victory, but I'm glad I "asked." I should've thought of that. It's clear I've been out of the game too long. I went and shot it with my infrared gun. Saw the current pumping in was now 15.5. It's now 55F out and the exterior of the battery was at 113!!! The electrolyte must be quite a bit hotter. And the area of the 2 neighboring low cells were noticeably cooler. So all that power was likely going to four... already fully charged... and now WELL equalized... cells. Thank God it's not a hot, summer night! Core it is! I'm headed to Wally tomorrow to pick up some oil anyway. Thanks!
KendallP 04/07/21 10:36pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

A camping buddy has 4 6s in a tray, but he can't pull the tray all the way out to expose the back 6s. Makes it awkward. In our C, I have an outside compartment that is meant for skis I believe. I can carry lots of batts in there and just need to route wires to the power centre above there. The power centre is under a dinette seat. Not far for a wire length. You might find a way to carry batts in the MH. You can put "cable hatches" in the outside compartment door as a vent, so you can still lock the door (see that photo earlier with the cable hatch in the door and wires all over the place :) ) Well we do have some basement room... the DW was hoping to fill with all kinds of camping gear. Not one of them close to the current tray nor power center. But that's what expensive, long 4/0 cables are for! So maybe I should pick up coupla' pair a' L-16s like mena did and call it good! But I thought we determined capacity was no longer king when usable solar wattage became a thing. Virtually impossible to equalize without a lot of generator time and so forth. But yeah. Your buddy's tray sounds like mine. It's currently very difficult to dip the rear 29. And a taller version of it (T-1275) will only make things worse in that regard. Rhetorical question alert! So what does it mean when the 1093 takes the offender down to 6 1/2 Amps... hovers there for awhile... then begins to slowly climb over several hours... and continues to do so until it's at 10... then 11... then 12... and now 13 something? Progress, perhaps? It's 59F out there right now, so she's chugging along at about 14.9V. I'm figuring better to go easy on the healthy 4 cells at this voltage rather than pound the whole unit with The Beast. Maybe by morning she'll have finished the soft equalizing and I can reassess.
KendallP 04/07/21 09:43pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

I would get the Trojans instead of the Crowns if you are going that route, or 4- 6s if they fit. East Penn Deka 230AH gc15s work great! Might even have them at Costco or Sams. A 225AH Interstate 6 is supposedly made by Trojan as a rebranded T-105 which might be at Costco or Sams too. Probably they carry the 210AH rebranded 605 though. OK, so here's the rub about 4 - GC2s... My tray is exactly 14" wide by 23 1/2" deep The only way I could possibly fit them in this tray is to load them lengthwise in pairs They spec at 7 1/8" deep. That puts me 1/4" over in width. AND stacking them in tight with no ventilation between them for cooling. And they appear to be pretty straight up and down, i.e. 7 1/8" all the way from top to bottom. But $400 for 4 Interstates from Costco sure appeals to me more than $825 for 3 - T-1275s. So if you can find me another GC2 that is 7" or less deep for under a bill... And if zero gap between them is ok...
KendallP 04/07/21 06:54pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

It doesn't matter if you get the duff battery up in SG and voltage so it looks good, if it collapses under load. IMO test for that with just that battery. I didn't know the 1093 would do E from any amps setting like that. It says to put it on 4amps and Wet batt type. On marine/rv I use 4 amps for the first part anyway, per Mex's instructions. When I did fast charging they would be still in the red, but not with 4 amps. 6s you can do the fast charging and a couple Es. Much less hassle. I had the 1093 doing the 4 amp E on one full pair of 6s and my adj voltage converter on the other pair of 6s and the converter was doing about the same 4ish amps based on battery acceptance rate only not the current limit of the converter and then tapering just like the 1093, so the 4 amp setting for E makes sense. Camping in the MH on the beach? Do we get to see a youtube of it being stuck while the tide comes in like happened with some other guys down there? :) Haven't seen that one, but NO!!! Anyone videos me in that position will have to swim to find their phone! Yeah, I'm not sure I said I would park the rig in the sand. Just go TO the beach... from the safe campsite NEAR the beach. Well that didn't take long. Not long after I connected the coach to the offender on its own, I noticed I couldn't hear the fans running. Checked the voltage... Mid 7s So I have it back on the 1093. After the soft E is done, I want to see what The Beast can do to the electrolyte in 3 hours or so. I should be able to tell right away if the low SG cells are fizzing because The Beast will take a battery that reads "full" to 16+ in seconds. I priced T-1275s in my area. $275 each. $250 for the Crown version. Going to have to mull that over a bit. Guys like us who know how to care for batteries can get a lot of life out of crappy 29s. And with The Beast at my disposal... no tipping necessary. Let the bubbles do the work. Meanwhile, I need to take inventory and order some LED lightbulbs, STAT!!!
KendallP 04/07/21 06:08pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Well, B... sure enough. In fact, you probably know this, but I discovered if you poke the Equalize button before selecting a charge mode, it will go into Equalize after completing any of the 4 current settings. Not just the 4A like I had ASSumed you telling me. OK, I culled out the offending battery, disconnected the bank from the coach, equalized the other 2 at 15.7V via the 1093 and then reconnected and ran all the lights, 2 - Dometic Fan-tastic fans and 1 master bedroom ceiling fan for 2 hours. At the end I measured just over 12V running. I wish I'd a marked that one down Then I shudder down and immediately got 12.25 resting from the 2 good 29s. Then ledder' sit for a couple hours and marked a resting voltage of 12.47. I counted up all the lights and came up with about 32A. Plus 3A each for the Fan-tastics and guessing 5 for the ceiling fan in the bedroom? So I come up with roughly 40A. Given that, I took roughly 40A off of each ~ 100 Ah (20 hr rate) battery in 2 hours time. I'd say 12.47 resting is pretty darn good. So yeah... 4+ hours of that kind of punishment can stretch a 315 Ah hybrid bank pretty far! Especially if one of those batteries is a drag on the ticket. I reconnected the pair to the coach and lit up the Xantrex. It quickly got them up to 14.3 and went into acceptance. I have the 1093 on the offender... set to go into Equalize once "full." But now that I have a semi-reliable load tester... I'm regretting even starting that. I'm going to run out and stop the 1093 and see how the offender does for 1 hour with all lights and fans running. Then I'll do the safe 1093 equalization. Then the hard equalization with The Beast and see if I get the SG in those 2 cells up.
KendallP 04/07/21 03:39pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

In the 5er with all incandescent and all fans I could do about 25a DC as a load. Four hours would be 100AH (but the lamps do dim as voltage comes down drawing fewer amps) As mentioned earlier, the resting voltage can collapse under load with a duff battery. Not clear if the two "good ones" did that. IMO charge them up and do it again to see if just those two collapse. You read my mind, Carnac. 100 Ah over 4 hours is a pretty hard draw. 5 times as hard as the 20 hour rate. So maybe that could have something to do with it. EDIT: Having trouble finding a 5 hr Ah rating for Interstates, but Trojan's T-1275 has about 80% of the 20 hr rating at 5 hr (120 vs 150.) So certainly significant. Also... the fans and lights may have still been running, so that voltage may not have been resting. Looks like I have some testing to do. .
KendallP 04/06/21 03:52pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Hmmm. It appears Mex may have been spot on. Poor guy. It must be a burden being right all the time. I had all the flooring and upholstery cleaned. The guys wanted 2 dedicated circuits. So I unplugged the rig from shore, turned every light on and ran the 2 overhead fans on high. The overhead lights are fluorescent, but the rest are incandescent (I will be replacing those with LEDs very soon.) They ended up having a tech issue with their machine, so it took much longer than expected. At the 4 hour point I noticed the fans weren't running. I tested the batteries. 5.5 VOLTS!!! So if we presume the battery with the weird SG readings is a drag on the system, then the other 2 were carrying the load... and perhaps trying to charge the offender. Without taking an audit of lighting, should 2 healthy 29s be able to provide 4 hours of full lighting in a 34' MH and run 2 fans? Or was I asking too much of them? Note: The job was supposed to take about 2 hours, they said. The lights and fans were out of sight, out of mind.
KendallP 04/06/21 12:12pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

29, 30, and 31, are acid starved specials, just like 65's and 34's. They scrape by in engine starting duty but fall flat on their face if cycled. A real hoot was Delco's calcium/calcium sealed RV battery. Known as the single cycle special. After 1 discharge the "eye" stayed red until shortly after when the battery played possum. The mark of a crappy quality battery is flaky hydrometer readings. They reflect poor capacity, horrible charge efficiency factorials and early death. The battery regresses to its evil habits very soon after a lengthy equalization. I have had scumbag brand golf car batteries revert to .03 differential 5 cycles after equalization. Six months old. The owner of the Screwy Battery described a charge regimen of jamming 200+% electricity back into the battery. Pretty much a disaster as far as Charge Efficiency Factor is concerned. Using CEF to determine health of a battery is a good way to stay out of the swamp. This is true for any rechargeable battery including lithium with all of the variants. If a battery advertises CEF of 1.15 and you find yourself at 1.26 Houston, you have a problem. Oh, how I've missed this. The poet of EE Town. Thanks for weighing in, old man. Hope you are well. Now I don't have the equipment nor the time to measure CEF. So I guess I'll have to rely on anecdotal, real world failures and cold nights without the furnace to gauge my batteries. EDIT: Possible correction... Perhaps I could use my Kill-a-Watt to approximate. I'd have to figure for heat and fan loss, but I should, at least be able to gauge whether or not I'm pumping in 200%, I suppose. But now are you saying, given a binary choice, you would pick 27s over 29s?
KendallP 04/06/21 12:19am Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

ISTR the T-1275 is a bit taller than the 6s. Do confirm. Not sure, here is a photo from 2014 with one of my wiring-zoo, 5er set-ups. Two more 6s off to the right for 6 batts. The two T-1275s were in their own bank with their own solar in that set-up. Nice! According to specs, the two are of almost identical height. And... according to... the actual specs... you were right. Trojan has the T-1275 at 150 Ah (20 hour rate, of course.) I got 160 from batteryoutfitters.com. That'll teach me.
KendallP 04/05/21 09:18pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

The 1093DBD can start the recharge with the batt at 50% or whatever, and it runs at 4 amps with the green light flashing, but still at 14.8v until it gets the batt "full" and then all by itself it shifts to 15.7 to do the equalize part, but it is a smooth ride all the way from 50% to when the amps taper at 15.7 till it says "FUL" so it can take a long time but is all automatic. The inverter charger and the 1093 can both work together as long as the generator has enough VA to run them both. Set the Xantrex to 14.8v or near that so they add their amps most of the way up. Once the total amps taper to what one of the two chargers can do by itself, you can yank the other charger. Solar will add its amps too while that is going on if the controller setting is near 14.8v The 1093 has temp comp so matching its voltage with a charger without temp comp means first you have to see what the 1093's voltage is at the time--but it has its own voltmeter. At 35F, the 1093 can be over 15v instead of 14.8. It can be 14.6 when it is above 77F. Start the 1093 first to get it going and then the other charger. Sometimes it will show a fault if it sees the other charger already on the batt. Not always. Depends on their relative voltages and the temp comp with that. Start the lowest voltage charger first. A T-1275 is about 83 lbs and rated at 150AH. They are bigger than a 6, so "measure twice and cut once". I got my two second hand out of a golf cart that had four at 48V. They were down some in capacity but I got them up to about 135 and they lasted me five years :) New ones would be awesome. Stay away from those big 12v 31s! Was a long thread here about a "Screwy 31" he had trouble with. Don't get that with T-1275s. 6s are not all the same for quality etc, it seems. I have the Deka 230AH G15s that are maybe the best 6s I have owned. Only had them a year though. Lots more good info here! Yeah, I had the 25A version of the 1093 for a long time. I had bought it before I was an RVer. Otherwise I would have sprung for the 40. So I know how they work. That said, I didn't know that you could use the 4A setting and the 1093 would finish with an equalizing. If the 25A version did that, I never knew it. You and I had talked a lot about how these Vector units had the best quick charging algorithm going. And yeah, we always knew more than one charger could run with another concurrently. Since the last owner blew his up somehow (from an estate... so he can no longer tell me how he did it,) I'm a little concerned about repeating history. So I was just curious if the Xantrex will have some kind of problem with it. And FWIW, I always ran at least 2 charges. Sometimes 4 (in honor of an old rv.net buddy who's very near and dear to your heart.) And I never had an error message in that regard. The generator is a 7,500W Onan diesel. My battery tray actually has more width than height. I can fit the GC2s, but wouldn't want to go much taller. There's room on either side of the 29s and plenty of room in between the 3. So the T-1275s will almost certainly fit. But yes. I will definitely measure first, to be sure. And I know a guy with a golf cart company in town. I wouldn't mind getting some on the cheap that I could restore. But yeah... Trojan actually quotes them at 160. So 480 sure would be a nice starting point! Interesting about the 31s. Thanks for the tip! I was actually considering that as a possibility. I had noticed they're not easy to find. Perhaps that's why? More and more I'm liking the idea of 3 - T-1275s. I mean... isn't my family worth it?
KendallP 04/05/21 05:31pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

Equalize it separately if you have any concerns. Worst case you can trade it in. Use them up, no need to baby them. I have always felt and advised the same. These batteries work for US. Not the other way around.
KendallP 04/05/21 05:14pm Tech Issues
RE: Lead Acid Battery - 2 Cells No Float

With solar you do shallow cycles and don't get PCL you would notice getting to full or near full so often. 6s get PCL too. It is easier to "recover" them after than the marine/Rvs. T-1275s are like 6s for that--loved my T-1275s! Guys on here can help with how to attach to your fibreglass roof. You can just lay them out lashed to the cargo rails to keep them out of reach, drop the wires down to the controller near the batts. The 1093DBD is good for marine/rv batts. Mex got me onto that and time2roll (used to be smk) was right that they like "low and slow". Set it to 4 amps and push the Equalize button and it brings them up slowly to 15.7v. You don't have to be there for that so good for overnight. Mex wants 16v if you can get it. Anyway that gets the SG up into the green and you can do it again if the SG is not all the way up. Painless compared with the agonies I had with my 27s back when. You want a good size bank to run the inverter doing a microwave. After you win the Lotto, you can join the Lithium stampede and get more usable AH in the same space, plus they handle big draws like inverter-MW, and no sulphation so no PCL. Meanwhile you can stall like you said with three 12s until you can tell where you want to go with your batts. 1. Yeah, I was thinking with solar, the generator and the 1093DBD, I could actually have a chance of topping them (equalizing) a few times during a week. So the GCs should start bubbling earlier, thus shortening the process. Same as at home, yes. And loved your T-1275s, eh? Well now you've piqued my interest. A new pair of GC2s and a single, new 29 hybrid will run about $300 and offer about 310 Ah. Meanwhile, for double the money, 3-T-1275s will offer 480 Ah. wa8yxm mentioned rapid aging. Well... for just another 90 bucks for the Everstart 29, I can afford to rapidly age the heck out of those 3 hybrids and then plunk down the 6 bills for the 3 Trojans... and have a bank stronger than 4 GC2s. That's if my tray can handle almost the 250 lbs. And If I can lift 'em up in there! 2. No cargo rails. Tons of basement storage, though 3. Well with voltage regulation, the 1093 can be low and slow no matter the setting. But yeah... the equalizing function will only allow a max of 4A. But I thought the unit had to read "Full" by regular charging first, no? 4. My Harbor Freight beast, the one Mex also loves, can easily bring them to 16V. I believe it was mena who measured that unit as almost 20A on the 10A setting. The "Start" switch effectively overrides the auto function and makes it manual in whatever current setting it's on. I had run the 1093 on equalizing mode and took SG readings afterward. Then I hit the 2 good ones with the HF unit and got an average of another 0.150 out of them. So basically from an average of 1.260... to an average of about 1.275. 5. You bring up another good point. Hybrids should provide more power to the hair dryer or microwave before tapping out. I feel like we had this very conversation about your rig way back when. And didn't someone insist on an electric popcorn popper??? Or was that just microwave popcorn we were talking about? Should there be any concern of harming the Xantrex if I'm running the 1093 concurrently? They don't give those things away, I see.
KendallP 04/05/21 03:44pm Tech Issues
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