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RE: How do I move weight forward?

This was the result of rearranging weight around in the camper and removing approximately 100 lbs of stuff not needed, as well as 80 lbs of fuel from the fuel cell (10 gallons worth).Had the same 80 gallons of fresh and cycle as last time. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50581067806_c842f1097c.jpg Removed 320# off the trailer axles. Put roughly 300 lbs back on the pin. Putting 1500 lbs of water & cycle now only removes 10% of that weight, 150lbs, from the pin vs 500 previously. Steer axle went up since I weighed with the wife and dog this time. I would the results are positive and pretty much what I figured. The heaviest items- Spare tire, grill, fuel all removed from the very back of the trailer and put towards the front helped quite a bit. As well as some of the other items such as tools and a 40 lb wagon. With that being said, I am going to look into upgrading the axles and brakes over the winter to 8K lb just for the peace of mind.
RoyBell 11/08/20 02:40pm Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem. This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem. Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear. It's only an 11' garage (10.5' usable) so you aren't putting a lot of vehicle in the garage anyways. I would also argue that a lot of this was my own doing with the options. I got the 3rd AC in back (100 lbs), the glass doors instead of pulldown screen (80-100lbs), power awning on the rear (80?) extra side awning (80?), slide toppers (minimal and not any behind the axle). So that's at least 350lbs of "stuff" I added to the rear of the camper which is obviously taking away some CCC in the garage. I don't need to travel with 75 gallons (or full 115gal) of water either. I just always filled my tank on the old camper so I do it out of habit. Also, I can re-arrange stuff as well. Right now I have light stuff like the camper chairs under the front bed, which is the most forward storage I have. I can put my spare tire up there, or both spares (I ordered an extra that stayed in the garage), my tools, spare parts, etc. that I seldom use are in the passthru storage which can be moved to the bunk storage. I have a table top on the rear hapijack that is for the garage, but we have not used it once. I can pull that out and save 25 lbs off the rear. The table for the sofa was too big the one time we used it, so I bought a little side table. Another 20lbs. Other stuff we don't need can come out of the camper. Extra pots/pans, cups, electric griddle, etc. All this little stuff will add up. If I can, I will get this all done in time for Friday. I will then re-weigh with the cycle to see how the weight moved around. The problem is if you remove any weight from in front of the axles your pin weight will just get lighter. Moving weight from back to front is what you need, and I see you doing that with some stuff. But if you move 300 lbs from back to front and then remove a different 300 lbs from the front, you are gaining very little in moving weight to the pin. I am removing weight over the axles (kitchen area) and distributing weight to the furthest forward storage. With that being said, I am looking into possibly upgrading the axles to 8K lb units. It does not appear as costly as I would had thought. Looks like possibly 3-4K to get them installed, which, to me, is pretty cheap insurance to make sure I am not overweight.
RoyBell 11/05/20 08:42am Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit. I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer. Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails. IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR. Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks. All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating. This. I agree. OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles. This is more a limitation of trailer length and 2 axles vs 3. There are 2 black tanks, 1 gray tank, at least 1 water tank, 1 fuel tank. There's only so many places to put that stuff. I would argue it's a better design since it's easier to fill up water and fuel at a campground than it is to dump black and gray. Therefor you can carry heavier cargo since the waste tanks are in the front. Fill up water and fuel at a campground is what you base a "good design" on? Wow. I will again state what I did earlier, glad I have a triple axle trailer with a 1 ton dually. I don't worry about where I put stuff or what I haul. Full water, empty water, full fuel, empty fuel, it all tows the same for me. Good luck. That's fantastic that you have a 1 ton and triple axle mansion on wheels. I don't want a 45' trailer. Not sure why you keep coming in here and bragging about it?? I will state again, I had size limitations based on my preference of indoor storage at my office AND I did not want a 40'+ camper since you start to limit yourself on campgrounds and places you can fit. I got exactly what I wanted and I came for suggestions. Life is full of compromises. A 45' triple axle has plenty of drawbacks. Filling water and fuel at a campsite after unloading the toys is the least of my worries if I can't even get into the campsite since I have a trailer too long. My only issue here is the axle capacity. That's it. Quit making this out to be more than it is.
RoyBell 11/05/20 08:37am Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

If the manufacturer had put the front axle behind the back axle, you would not have this problem. This is most likely a classic example of the salesman telling the design guy what the customers are looking at. High published empty pin weight makes smaller truck owner move away from these trailers. So they design them to shift the weight back when empty. That works fine, unless you use the same frame on a toy hauler where you add 1,000 or more to the rear. And now you have the OP's problem. Looks like you would have to travel with no water or fuel until you get close to your destination. Or maybe empty water tanks and water jugs up front to help offset the weight of the SxS in the rear. It's only an 11' garage (10.5' usable) so you aren't putting a lot of vehicle in the garage anyways. I would also argue that a lot of this was my own doing with the options. I got the 3rd AC in back (100 lbs), the glass doors instead of pulldown screen (80-100lbs), power awning on the rear (80?) extra side awning (80?), slide toppers (minimal and not any behind the axle). So that's at least 350lbs of "stuff" I added to the rear of the camper which is obviously taking away some CCC in the garage. I don't need to travel with 75 gallons (or full 115gal) of water either. I just always filled my tank on the old camper so I do it out of habit. Also, I can re-arrange stuff as well. Right now I have light stuff like the camper chairs under the front bed, which is the most forward storage I have. I can put my spare tire up there, or both spares (I ordered an extra that stayed in the garage), my tools, spare parts, etc. that I seldom use are in the passthru storage which can be moved to the bunk storage. I have a table top on the rear hapijack that is for the garage, but we have not used it once. I can pull that out and save 25 lbs off the rear. The table for the sofa was too big the one time we used it, so I bought a little side table. Another 20lbs. Other stuff we don't need can come out of the camper. Extra pots/pans, cups, electric griddle, etc. All this little stuff will add up. If I can, I will get this all done in time for Friday. I will then re-weigh with the cycle to see how the weight moved around.
RoyBell 11/04/20 01:51pm Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit. I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer. Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails. IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR. Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks. All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating. This. I agree. OP, your toyhauler is of poor design in location of everything. Water tanks should always go above or slightly in front of the axles. This is more a limitation of trailer length and 2 axles vs 3. There are 2 black tanks, 1 gray tank, at least 1 water tank, 1 fuel tank. There's only so many places to put that stuff. I would argue it's a better design since it's easier to fill up water and fuel at a campground than it is to dump black and gray. Therefor you can carry heavier cargo since the waste tanks are in the front.
RoyBell 11/04/20 12:37pm Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

Heres a diagram of what's going on. My tanks are rough estimates since my underside is all enclosed. I am pretty sure there are 2 fresh water tanks but not sure. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50566561261_f04033b672_c.jpg
RoyBell 11/04/20 09:02am Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle. I dunno about that. No, not 36.5 footers. The longer/heavier rigs have triple axles (like mine). Okay how about most toy haulers with dedicated garages that don't require putting your toys in the living room? Mine has a dedicated 11' garage. As stated before, I don't think there are any sub 40' trailers ( I was limited to 37-38') that are triple axle with dedicated garage. With 11' garage you are limited to how big a rig you can bring along anyways. Some of these SxS are extremely heavy for their length. I am about to pull the trigger on a 50" SxS, but then I started looking at the larger ones. They are almost twice the weight though.
RoyBell 10/29/20 01:53pm Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. Putting ballast on the pin would not be my first choice, just wondering if it would work. As well as wondering how much I am putting on the axles being a little low in the back. My pin is really light. Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%) Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%) With the bike and water it tows absolutely wonderful. Without the weight, it sways a lot. I was restricted by length due to my choice of camper storage. As a result, I chose a double axle trailer under 38'. I knew there would be limitations but this model seemed to have the best CCC of the ones I looked at. Once on the scales, obviously I am having some issues with distribution. It's fine for my cycle and smaller sxs, which is what I will have to stay focused on. I will play around a little more, run less fuel in the cell. Move some weight around the best I can, maybe see if lowering the pin will help any. The factory spare is just in front of the axles, maybe I can move that to the front storage as well. Upgrading the axles seems like the best option, but not necessary if I can figure out how to distribute the weight. I'll keep everyone updated. Balast on the pin would increase the Percentage pin weight but wouldn't do anything for the overweight axles. You are WAYYYY light at 13% with the bike in the back and adding another 1500lb would only make it worse. It would probably drag you below 10% and I would worry about handling. I believe you are running up against the technical vs practical limits for CCC. Even with your Bike, it's questionable at 13% pin weight. It's odd that adding weight to the back and reducing pin weight is making the ride worse. Typically they higher the pin weight the better the towing experience. It's possible the manufacturer just mucked up the design with no practical way to utilize the garage to it's full rating. 13% is light, but it tows straight as an arrow with the 1500lbs. I have 3K miles towing up and down mountains like that no problem. And I would not be adding an additional 1500 lbs. I cant tow the bike and a SxS at the same time. And there is no limit on the garage for any toy hauler. Just CCC which includes weight in the rest of the camper.
RoyBell 10/29/20 01:42pm Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. Putting ballast on the pin would not be my first choice, just wondering if it would work. As well as wondering how much I am putting on the axles being a little low in the back. My pin is really light. Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%) Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%) With the bike and water it tows absolutely wonderful. Without the weight, it sways a lot. I was restricted by length due to my choice of camper storage. As a result, I chose a double axle trailer under 38'. I knew there would be limitations but this model seemed to have the best CCC of the ones I looked at. Once on the scales, obviously I am having some issues with distribution. It's fine for my cycle and smaller sxs, which is what I will have to stay focused on. I will play around a little more, run less fuel in the cell. Move some weight around the best I can, maybe see if lowering the pin will help any. The factory spare is just in front of the axles, maybe I can move that to the front storage as well. Upgrading the axles seems like the best option, but not necessary if I can figure out how to distribute the weight. I'll keep everyone updated.
RoyBell 10/29/20 07:32am Toy Haulers
RE: How do I move weight forward?

Roy - Do you travel with a full fuel station? This wouldn't help much, but what about traveling with fuel jugs in the bed instead of filling the fuel station? Or what about filling up the fuel when you're closer to your destination? I can't tell from your post what your hauler is? (I don't recognize the model number.) You talk about your pin instead of your tongue, so I assume it's a fifth wheel. How long is your fiver and what's the configuration? Do you have a dedicated garage or open floor? And how many axles? If you have an open floor, can you move your bike forward at all? (You said bike, right?) How heavy is the bike? Would it make any difference if you loaded it in backwards? Can you load a heavy cooler and load it towards the front? My fuel station was full. Approx 30 gallons. My TH is Momentum 320G It has double axles, 36.5' and 11' garage. I've weighed it dry and with the Harley (900lbs) and 3/4 tank of fresh water and it came in approx 1500 heavier than without it. I have a post below about the weights. I understand what's going on, I just am not sure how to fix it. For instance, 1500 lb in the garage, removes 500 lbs from the pin and total trailer axles go up 2,000 lbs. If I put 500 lbs of ballast back onto the pin, would my trailer axles only increase by the 1500lbs I put in the garage, or would the 500lb extra ballast on the pin negatively affect the trailer axles as well? Most of the weight/chairs are under the front bed or front pass-thru, which is about as far forward as I can go. I just have a 2nd spare and my portable grill in the garage, which I can't see equating to much over 100 lbs. I am working on putting them in the front storage though.
RoyBell 10/29/20 05:53am Toy Haulers
How do I move weight forward?

I am looking at side by sides for my 320G. On the scales with no bike/water the trailer has 12,120 lbs on the axles and 2,620 on the pin. With 1500 lbs of water and motorcycle, it shifts the weight to the trailer axles by 2,000 lbs and pulls almost 500 lbs off the pin. 14,120 on axles and 2140 on the pin. This puts my axles at max load (7000 lb axles) despite being under GVWR. It appears the water tank is towards the front front half of the garage and the fuel cell is at the rear half. If I look at a 1700 lb side by side, I would have to run no water. However, it would pull so much weight off the pin, that my axles would be severally overloaded, despite being so much under GVWR. If I put more ballast on the pin, would it offset the weight in the garage? It just blows my mind that adding 1500 lb to the garage adds 2000 lbs to the trailer axles. Adding 1700-1800 lbs would likely add 2400 lbs to the trailer axles I have about 7" clearance now to the bedrails. Would lowering the pin an 1-2 inches and going with shorter tires (I have 35s), for another 1" gain transfer enough weight back to the truck to make it worth while? It's a little low in the rear currently which is likely contributing to this problem. I am not sure what else I could do. There isn't much weight in the garage other than a portable grill and spare tire (maybe 100 lbs total) which I can transfer to front storage. We travel pretty light otherwise.
RoyBell 10/28/20 03:24pm Toy Haulers
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

OK finally got around to weighing...with the Bike AND **Full tank of water. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50517696091_45a5b89ac8_c.jpg Had about 3/4 tank of fuel. Camper pulled awesome. Just like it's 1000 mile maiden voyage. Running the numbers this is what I come up with. **Bike + 115 gallons water= 1500 lbs on the nose. Although this doesn't add up. 115 gallons of water= 950 lbs. Literature on my Bike says it's 900 lbs wet. That means either I lost weight in the camper somehow (didn't take anything out except some clothes) 600 lbs of water= 72 gallons, which is a far cry from 115. I could see losing a couple gallons on the way, but 43 gallons? But that's a problem for another day. Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%) Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%) Delta of 1500 lbs added: 480 lbs removed from rear axle. Steer axle remained the same no matter what: 5,120 lbs. Drive axle truck only: 3,460 lbs Drive axle empty trailer: 6,080 lbs Drive axle loaded trailer: 5,600 lbs So 1 of two things is happening. Either the truck does not like the extra 480 lbs on the drive axle or the trailer is much more "planted" with 1500 lbs (900 at least since it's not great with just water and no bike). If I had time I would had dumped the fresh water and re-weighed.
RoyBell 10/22/20 03:12pm Toy Haulers
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

I picked my camper up today and was able to weigh it empty (no bike, no water, no food). Total weight is not far off what I figured. The pin has me scratching my head. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50174471132_e5cde53f11_z.jpg I had a little under a full tank of fuel. Steer axle remained almost identical Pin approx: 2,600lbs Total trailer: 14,700 lbs Pin comes in at 17%. If I load my Bike and water in the back (soon to be done and weighed again), I am adding approx 2000 lbs behind the trailer axle, lightening the pin even more. It also puts me at the max GVWR for the trailer (16,800 lbs)and the 7K lb axles would be maxed out. This seems far too light of a pin for the weight of trailer. However, the trailer towed great that way. What's everyones thoughts?
RoyBell 07/31/20 01:50pm Toy Haulers
RE: Weighing Fifth Wheel at CAT Scale with Weigh My Truck App

Did I read that right, that your 2018 Dodge 3500 DRW weight is almost 10,500 lbs ? I'm not sure, but I'm thinking my 2017 F-350 is 8500 +/-. Why so much ? Interweb says that thing should be 7000lb ish Must need to deduct Pin. Me thinks you should visit the scales. This sounds like a lot to me as well. I weighed my 2500 Megacab Diesel @ 8600 lbs with just myself and over half a tank of fuel and some fire wood in the back. I have to assume the megacab weighs pretty close to a crew cab with 8' bed. I am also deleted with no DEF or DEF filters. Those exhaust components were heavy, I assume another 100 lbs easily. I do have heavier than stock tires, but only 4 of them, so add for the 2 extra wheels @ 130lbs each + longer axle, another 100 lbs. 3 extra passengers if he had company= 500 lbs. Assume another 10 gallons of fuel= 80 lbs That would push my truck to about 9650 lbs. Where does the extra 800 lbs come from? Hitch? I have a goose ball so my hitch weight is on the camper.
RoyBell 07/07/20 07:45am Fifth-Wheels
RE: Weighing Fifth Wheel at CAT Scale with Weigh My Truck App

I tried this app today. It was the first time I ever weighed and it was very easy. Thank you for posting this.
RoyBell 07/01/20 03:24pm Fifth-Wheels
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

So I dropped the camper off at the dealer for some work today. I did not have time to weigh with the camper since I was running late. I did weigh the truck on the way back though. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50065842273_c10fe9f0af_z.jpg This was with a little over half a tank, but generally how I would roll (minus people) with the camper. It seems accurate total weight since that is roughly what I weigh when I roll on the scrapyard scale. I drained the rest of the fresh water (there was approx 50-60 gallons) before I left. It was worse than the trip home. I played around with the airbag pressure, pumped up to 85 lbs and was still floaty. What is the ratio supposed to be for steer to drive axle weight with the 5th wheel? Also I measured front to rear at the camper store since the drive was pretty level. The front was 5" higher than the rear. That seems like a lot to me. I still think I am going to lower the front at least an inch or 2 regardless. Once I pick it up in a couple weeks I can see what the camper weighs. I am tempted to ride my cycle up there and have the wife drive the truck, load the cycle and check the weights with and without the cycle so I can do it all in one shot.
RoyBell 07/01/20 03:19pm Toy Haulers
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

How was the wind? Wind makes a huge difference in the way the rig feels in the driver's seat. My experience with toyhaulers and over 50,000 miles and all kinds of weight configurations is wind is the primary culprit. With what you described; your rig should have pulled better in the second scenario with the garage unloaded. Wind didn't seem bad. First trip, over 2K miles I had to watch from pulling it at 80 since the trailer was so balanced and the truck was happy. This trip I felt better at 65. Over 70 and it wanted to sway and the truck felt more "floaty". I don't expect to travel often without some type of weight in the garage. We just didn't get a chance to get a cart yet and she said we wouldn't have time to ride so no Bike :(. If all it needs is weight in the back to be happy, that's easy :). I just wasn't sure if a slightly longer wheel base or lowering the front some would be helpful.
RoyBell 06/29/20 02:53pm Toy Haulers
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

Just out of curiosity, how far behind the rear axle is the hitch mounted? By that I mean where does the weight rest in the bed with respect to the rear axle. And where is your fresh water tank located? Kind of hard to tell exactly, but the trailer looks pretty level to me. Hitch/ball is roughly right over the axle, if not slightly ahead of. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49084812317_b3666b7366_c.jpg I just looked under the camper and I think (it's all covered) the fresh water might actually be just behind the trailer axles. The overflow and main dump are there. The fuel cell is located under the garage, at the very back. The cleanouts are coming from above the axle and in front of the axle. That makes me think the greys and black are actually towards the front of the camper. This now makes me think I didn't have enough air in my airbags. Without the extra counterbalance of the bike at the back of the trailer, a lot more weight was on the truck than I originally though. I only had the fresh water partially full the first trip. With the bike that's putting almost 2K lbs behind the trailer axles. I didn't try running pressure past 35 lbs since that worked the best on the first trip. Specs list dry weight @ 12,400 with Pin @ 2300. The tag lists mine @ 13,200. With the generator my rough estimate on pin was 2,600. I assume filled up and running without any toys I am 14,500 lbs with 3,200 pin. That should put it right around 22% which seems like where it should be. I realize these are assumptions on my part for weights based on literature.
RoyBell 06/29/20 02:46pm Toy Haulers
RE: Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

I have to drop it off this week for some service to be done. I might be able to hit a scale since I won't have a nagging family breathing down my neck. It will be dry without the bike in the back. Not sure that will help much.
RoyBell 06/29/20 11:00am Toy Haulers
Toyhauler hitch/truck setup

We have a Grand Design 320G and would like some input on the current setup. I have a Ram 2500 with aftermarket airbags. It's a Megacab with 6 1/2' bed. The hitch is a gooseball/ reese goosebox. Our first trip was over 2000 miles and the camper felt very stable and I had no issues towing. We did have the 1000 lb Harley in the garage and approx 800 lb water ballast. The truck was just the Wife and myself. The trip this weekend was more local and we did not have much weight in the garage. I did fill the camper fuel cell this time (approx 250 lbs), whereas it was empty on the first trip. A couple bicycles and our usual grill/spare tire. I filled the water tanks full (approx 950 lbs). The truck had wife, myself, and 2 young adults (300 lbs extra if even) The camper pulled ok, but not nearly as stable as the first trip. Now for the questions -Was this the cause of not having the extra weight in the garage? I was hoping to get a golf cart for this trip but ran out of time. I know TH generally run better weight in the garage -I have been debating getting an 8' bed truck, but holding for hopefully a redesigned HD Cab from Ram (2021/2022 rumors). The Ram with 8' bed is approx 9" longer than the Megacab I have. 160.5 vs 169". Would 8.5" in wheel base make any significant difference in stability? I have no interest in a Dually since I live in suburbs and have to park in Chicago sometimes. -Should I lower the front of my camper? Right now I have a hair over 7" clearance to the bedrails. The bolts on the pin box are 2" increments. It's sitting a little low in the rear currently. (I would guess approx 2") If I lower a bolt hole it lowers my clearance to 5". Or I could get an extended ball and get to 6" clearance. I believe everyone says 6-7" is ideal. I also have new tires on the rear for this trip which are approx 1/2" taller than the Fall trip last year, raising the front a little more. If I put too much air in my air bags it makes the problem worse by raising the front of the camper more. It's hard to tell from a picture, but this is the best side view I have from when we picked it up: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48870278742_6bf3bbc30d_c.jpg Appreciate any insight on this.
RoyBell 06/29/20 09:14am Toy Haulers
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