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RE: Truck - family of 5 and 65lb dog

If 4x4 is not required, an HDT is a very comfortable way to travel for a family + dog: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/vc8T-HoVAubAs5sFOOH73Rkq8O86PcXkgAHdL2xh2xqvYOYkrmkUYMGe2wm83hfV8GfZJmRVpC2Gl4vKXcDY6ocuve41tKrKhPvNn3KbBB_AygjOiw
RoyJ 06/28/21 09:38pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Loss of Power after New Fan Clutch

But even newer 1/2T's have clutch fans. My neighbor has a late model F150 with HD towing pkg and it has a large clutch fan - because that's what it needs to keep temps down. Also, you do not want to add an electric fan to a system that already has a clutch unit. The electric fan will block airflow and cause performance issues. Besides, pusher fans don't work nearly as well as pullers. What year is the F150? Every model I've seen (at least the EB engine) uses twin e-fans. Fuzzy photo, but you can barely make out the fans behind the rad: https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f38/263680d1382155360-max-tow-package-vs-standard-f150-ecoboost-cooling-fans-rad.jpg Not saying that's the solution to the OP's problem, just that there shouldn't be a perceivable power loss on a modern 1/2 ton. 1 - 2 mph loss, maybe, not 10 mph. My 2014 Ram hemi uses a shroudless e-fan in front of a mechanical fan. I've since deleted both and installed a brushless e-fan from a Pentastar. Not overheated once towing 8500 lbs, though our temp don't get that high. The modern 1/2 ton Ram has a higher GVW with only a brushless e-fan (higher wattage than mine). And we know how strict OEM cooling certification is!
RoyJ 06/21/21 06:00pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Loss of Power after New Fan Clutch

Put on an electric fan. No electric fan can move as much air as the stock clutch fan on these trucks. That's why they use them. As of 2021 all domestic 1/2 tons come with OEM e-fans. The much smaller fan to shroud clearance has a decent increase in efficiency, hence Ram gets away with 900 - 1000 watts instead of the 5 - 10 hp mechanical fan. But in the OP's case, something is not right. Even a 10 hp parasitic draw shouldn't decrease speed from 50 to 40 mph, that's closer to a 50 hp draw.
RoyJ 06/21/21 01:38pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Sheesh, this thread is longer winded than trying to tow a trailer with 3.30 gearing! Better not read trucking news then, Volvo is talking about (gasp!) 1.95 rear end ratios on their semi ;) https://www.ttnews.com/articles/rear-axle-ratios-still-moving-downward
RoyJ 05/26/21 01:26pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Hence the reason why the fact still stands that taller rear gears put more stress on the trans and driveline gear for gear than a shorter rear gear. Gear for gear, not one 8th and the other in 10th. Gear for gear. If gear-for-gear was the strict condition, then sure, I'll absolutely agree the 4.30 truck will have lower engine stress, converter stress, transmission internal stress, driveshaft stress, and equal axle torque. But that's unrealistic. Why shouldn't the 3.31 downshift twice and match rpm-for-rpm? Ford must agree with me somewhat to make the tow ratings so close. Also, I'm limiting my statement to modern HD pickups only. i.e. vehicles with power similar to a semi, and transmission ratios better than an Allison BR500. If we include Jeeps/ 4runners with barely adequate gearing for stock 32s, and then putting on 37s, that's an entirely difference story. See my post above, I made it clear my old Ram very much need a re-gear, and that's just to tow a 10k dump trailer. If I tried a 30k trailer I'll need 4Lo just to nudge it! So my statements weren't meant to be a 1 size fits all for all vehicles / situations.
RoyJ 05/26/21 01:19pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Roy, If that frod with 6.15 gears had 40" tires vs standard 32" tires. Might be a good setup. 2nd setup looks kinda normal for some OTR rigs where top rpm is 2000! Tire diam, tra s ratio's, all effect how a RA ratio should be at. A rig with 28" tires, 3.42 gears, another with 3.73 and 30" tires, or 4.10 with 32" tires, assuming same trans, engine, all have the same shift points, should accelerate and pull the same load equally. I'm positive there will be some difference's, but in reality, nothing too major. Marty Funny enough, I just recently put the smallest, highest payload tires on my old V10 Ram, because re-gearing may cost more than the old truck! I chose 235/65/16C, off of a Transit van. Compared to the 31.5", I made my 3.54 effectively into a 4.00. My point though, was folks only look at rear end ratios. The 4R100 has a 2.75:1 1st, and the 10R140 a 4.615:1. I bet if we did a random poll of what's better for towing: old 4 speed Ford with 6.10 rear end, or new 10 speed Ford with 3.31. 9 out of 10 would pick the 6.10 rear end without thinking twice.
RoyJ 05/26/21 01:01pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

If Ford shoved a beefed up 4R100 in the new dually, paired it with a 6.15 rear end ......... are we all going to say "oh, ah, what an amazing tow rig Ford made!" On the other hand, if Ford used a military 7 speed Allison or 18 spd Fuller, but a 2.23 rear end, are we getting out the pitch forks and crucify Ford for using a "car" rear end? See my point? All this talk about gear ratio, no one even mentioned the transmission ratio. As for component stress, I think I've bored people with enough math already ;)
RoyJ 05/25/21 09:38pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Let's be fair to Ford and look at what Ram uses (I'm a big Mopar fan just to be clear): 3.75:1 Aisin 1st speed ratio, 4.10 axle ratio, 37,100 lbs tow rating. Works out to be 15.375 total ratio, or "2413 lbs per total gear ratio" Ford: 4.615:1 1st gear, 3.55 axle ratio, 35,000 lbs towing. 16.383 total ratio, or 2136 lbs per gear ratio So starting out in 1st gear, the 3.55 Ford has a 12% gearing advantage over an Aisin Ram running 4.10.
RoyJ 05/25/21 11:59am Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

The counterpoint being raised is given an enthusiast driver who cares about his truck (not a fleet driver), towing heavy with a 3.31 puts very little additional stress on components other than the driveshaft / u-joints. This is where we disagree. I know that the added stress put on the driveshaft/u-joints is also placed upon the output shaft of the trans which in turn is being held to the input side of the trans via clutches. I don't see how anyone can say that there is added stress on the driveline, but not added stress on a clutch and output shaft that is connected to that same driveline. I'll start by saying we're talking RV use, NOT commercial under-speed cases. In the latter case you would have higher average torque in the transmission input side, because you're purposely lowering the cruising speed. So with a fix cruising hp requirement: we drop the rpm by 25%, up goes engine torque by 25%. In the RV case, we're locking out 9th / 10th. So if cruising rpm is identical, engine output HAS to be identical. Engine does not know what rear end there is, only the total gear reduction ratio. If you look at my chart earlier, both 3.31 and 4.30 truck engines are putting out ~420 hp and ~800 lb-ft of torque. The only difference is the 3.31 truck in 4th, and 4.30 truck in 6th. The flywheel / TC clutch would not know the difference.
RoyJ 05/25/21 11:48am Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Is this the fault of the owner for not being knowledgeable enough to know when to lock out gears? The manufacturer for being forced to make the truck this way to meet EPA and CAFE regulations? Or the EPA and NHTSA for forcing auto manufacturers to make trucks that are less reliable for their purpose? I'd say that answers this: Ok let’s make this simple once and for all, if gearing does not matter, then the engineers at any manuf. would not have different ratios for towing higher weights. But to tow an XXXX lb trailer you need the next lower gear, and so on. It can’t be made any simpler than that. If you don’t understand that then all you are doing is arguing just to argue! OEMs have to cater to the masses, so no, they can't expect owners to lock out OD and over-ride computer shift points. Thus they lower the tow rating on taller geared trucks. As enthusiasts, we're often surprised how many people don't know what a tach is in the "general driving public". The counterpoint being raised is given an enthusiast driver who cares about his truck (not a fleet driver), towing heavy with a 3.31 puts very little additional stress on components other than the driveshaft / u-joints. This is made possible by modern 8/10 spds with tight gear ratios that easily overlaps differences in 3.31 vs 4.30. I showed it takes TWO gears to bridge the gap, so technically the 10 speed can emulate a 3.8x gear ratio as well. Note, I would've never said this in the old 48RE / 4R100 days. Back then, a proper rear end was crucial as gears were so few.
RoyJ 05/24/21 01:03pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Is this driver error? There are arguments for both sides, but I, like the OP, choose to change the gears myself based on what I am pulling. However, there are many out there that don't and just let computer do all the work. These are the people will generally have transmission clutch issues later on. I'd call that design error - the input side of the transmission should always be sized for the max tq output of the engine. Here're some charts I made a while back, 45 mph grade @ near full throttle. The 3.31 truck does it in 4th, the 4.30 truck does it in 6th: https://i.imgur.com/JBJklfB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BJLMSYH.jpg The tq input with both gears are the same. In fact, the 3.31 is a bit lower, purely a fluke of course. At another speed the 4.30 might be a hair lower. Point is, rear end ratio makes zero difference in RV application. In a commercial under-speed case, it may be difference because they're purposely lugging the engine down to 1100 rpm cruise. Whereas we're agreeing to lock out 9th/10th so both trucks cruise the same.
RoyJ 05/23/21 01:42pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Many of you are also forgetting about the tranny gears. That should be a sticky for any rear end discussion. My old Dodge V10 has a 2.45 1st gear ratio, that's nearly as tall as 3rd on a 10R140! I have a 3.54 rear end. It would take a 6.23 rear end to match a modern F350 with 3.31 diffs. Let's ask ourselves, if you bought an HD pickup 20 years ago, with a 6.23 rear end, would you honestly say: gee, this rear end is way too TALL, I'll burn up the tranny towing with it!? A 4.30 F350 would be like by old Dodge with 8.10 diffs - heck, do they even make that? Even military Rockwells don't go that short IIRC
RoyJ 05/22/21 12:56pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

https://i.postimg.cc/C1PFPXBT/Dana-torque.png height=450 width=500 They say a picture is worth a 1000 words! That's EXACTLY my point earlier: That means the ONLY difference in stress between a 3.31 and 4.30 truck is the transmission output torque, or driveshaft torque (again, T-in must = T-out). Because on the same hill, a 4.30 truck may be in 6th and the 3.31 truck in 5th. Your only stress increase with taller gearing is driveshaft torque. If anything else is burning up - that's drive abuse. Which granted, happens often with today's fleet drivers. But we're talking RV owners here.
RoyJ 05/22/21 12:48pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Roy, Probably a good thing we can't get multiple transmission options, along with axle gears. You'd get some crazy like me, order the 3.31 gear sets, but put a 10 so with a single OD, but have lower gears than the on Ford uses. I would have the same overall low, but at the top end, not have to worry about the DOD and TOD blowing up! We do have some different folks south of that line! Marty I believe that's actually the trend in Class 8s these days: ultra tall rear end, with direct or mild OD in the transmission. Theoretically it would make slightly more power, as ring and pinion gears of lesser difference have lower parasitic loss. Think We can agree a point: we can't evaluate the best rear end ratio, without also taking transmission ratios into account. A lot of the "get 4.1 to tow, 3.55 to cruise" mentality dates back to the Turbo 400 days with emissions choked 170hp 350 SBCs. With modern diesels and 8/10 spd transmissions, a 3.31 can drag a house off a foundation, and sufficient for all but the harshest fleet duties.
RoyJ 05/21/21 04:24pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

I never said combust. I just said that their lifespan were diminished in our fleet trucks that were used for towing/hauling on a regular basis, especially when combined with larger/heavier tires, versus our shorter geared trucks. This often negated any fuel savings gained from taller gears and we just stuck with shorter gear setups in these applications. Also, most of the burnt/grenaded clutches (after 100k+ miles) that we have seen in our nine Ford dealerships, were in trucks with taller gears. I was joking of course. Let's agree on this: it is EASIER to abuse a truck with taller gears. And if a truck is truly a dedicated tow rig, sure, I agree short gears are better. For private trucks, some of us want good empty mpg.
RoyJ 05/21/21 04:18pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

I'm gettin confused....now I need a show of hands... Whos team 4x and whos team Shiner? Lets go boys! Obviously physics change when you cross the 49th parallel :B Down south transmissions combust when hooked up to 3.31 gears :p
RoyJ 05/21/21 03:09pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Wow, physics, hell I'll play :D For any rigid shaft, torque in = torque out, correct? Basic Physics 101. Unless the shaft deforms, which is a failure... 3.31, 4.30, 4.88 truck, whatever, your max T-input at transmission is always your engine max torque, right? Assuming locked converter. You axle torque is always dictated by your speed, grade, weight, aero, and instant acceleration. Doesn't matter if you have 3.31/4.30/3.55/4.88/5.13 gears. To pull a 40,000 gvw rig hp 7% grade with no wind at constant speed, you need a FIXED amount of axle torque (thrust), correct? That means the ONLY difference in stress between a 3.31 and 4.30 truck is the transmission output torque, or driveshaft torque (again, T-in must = T-out). Because on the same hill, a 4.30 truck may be in 6th and the 3.31 truck in 5th. If you're burning OD clutches, either you've gone above the GVW rating of the tranny, and /or you should've locked out OD. Again, I don't know anybody pulling a heavy trailer that does WOT Launches. OEMs do extensive testing, including WOT runs on a dyno. Which is why off the line is the only place the 4.30 truck has an advantage is "lower stress". If the hill / weight is high enough, a 3.31 truck may require 100% throttle to get going, and the 4.30 truck 77%. After that, with 10 spds to play with, you can always find a hill where the 3.31 truck in 3rd climbs it at slightly less throttle than a 4.30 truck in 4th. And vice versa. In fact, if both trucks had perfect CVTs, a 3.31 and 4.30 truck would pull 2 equal hills, equal weight, at absolutely equal throttle %, rpm, and speed. The ONLY difference is driveshaft torque (4.30 truck is 77% less). Axle torque, transmission input shaft, would be IDENTICAL.
RoyJ 05/21/21 03:06pm Tow Vehicles
RE: 3.31 gears at 40,000 lbs gross.

Wow, physics, hell I'll play :D For any rigid shaft, torque in = torque out, correct? Basic Physics 101. Unless the shaft deforms, which is a failure... 3.31, 4.30, 4.88 truck, whatever, your max T-input at transmission is always your engine max torque, right? Assuming locked converter. You axle torque is always dictated by your speed, grade, weight, aero, and instant acceleration. Doesn't matter if you have 3.31/4.30/3.55/4.88/5.13 gears. To pull a 40,000 gvw rig hp 7% grade with no wind at constant speed, you need a FIXED amount of axle torque (thrust), correct? That means the ONLY difference in stress between a 3.31 and 4.30 truck is the transmission output torque, or driveshaft torque (again, T-in must = T-out). Because on the same hill, a 4.30 truck may be in 6th and the 3.31 truck in 5th. If you're burning OD clutches, either you've gone above the GVW rating of the tranny, and /or you should've locked out OD.
RoyJ 05/20/21 10:54pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Cummins/Tula dDSF (diesel Dynamic Skip Fire)

Both real exciting technologies in the diesel front. The Skip Fire is almost like PWM for electric motors, and may be the big step we're waiting for in in-cylinder emissions control vs relying solely on after-treatment. Hopefully 1 day we can look back at the past 15 years as a "interim" emissions phase, much like gas engines of the 70s and 80s. I've been saying for years we should look at series hybrids used on trains (GE's AC-AC drives can hit 90+% efficiency). It's much easier to optimize your prime mover for a few set-points, than a 3-D map of rpm vs throttle position. With a battery, we can't use pure AC-AC of course. But a battery is also necessary because unlike a locomotive, we need more than 8 throttle settings, and also need instant response. The extra reserve capacity of the battery should make up for the rectification / inversion losses of AC-DC-AC.
RoyJ 04/15/21 02:43pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Suburban Diesel Fuel Mileage Test

Around here with diesel running around $0.45 to $0.55 more per gallon than unleaded consistently, sometimes more, it's a wash. 2018 Burb with 6.0 would get a consistent 19.5 highway. 20 gallons UL @ 19.5mpg @ $2.50 = $50.00/390 miles/ $0.1282 per mile. 20 gallons D @ 27mpg @ $3.00 = $60.00/540 miles/ $0.1111 per mile. I guess if saving $0.0171 per mile gets you off, it's incredible, thats a whopping $1710 over 100K miles which pays for the $1000.00 upcharge to the 3.0, with $710.00 to spare. Just hope the difference between fuels does not increase to $0.60 or god forbid $0.70 TFL......LOL......those guys need to get real jobs. They have too much time on their hands and too many cult like followers paying them to do basically nothing providing useless info and reviews/tests such as those IKE towing comparisons. And 87 octane is 80 cents / gal higher than diesel up here. Give credit when credit is due - this engine is amazing as far as efficiency goes. (reliability is yet to be seen) Try producing video content like TFL, it'll humble you on what "real work" is.
RoyJ 03/26/21 11:25am Tow Vehicles
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