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RE: Weight Distribution with sway control question

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree. One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC. Good luck to you. Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets. Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world. With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed. Larry Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer. The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields. The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved. Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding. To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location. Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread? You just described exactly why the DC is a FRICTION hitch. The rest is just opinons... Is the DC better because it has increased friction when moving away from center than towards center? or is the Equalizer better because it can generate more force equally in BOTH directions? Keep in mind that SWAY is a back and forth motion of the TT. In reality, they both perform well. The advantage of the so called centering action of the DC is cancelled out if one believes that sway is when the TT wags back and forth... Since the DC has less force in this direction, it is at a disadvantage at that stage of sway. The EQUALIZER with its 4 points of friction can generate more antisway force in both directions. Bottom line... They both perform well. I don't see any friction and the instructions actually tell you lube those points when the hitch is set up tightly. They're actually a little comical. They say "never lubricate..." then go on to say "lubricate if... and finally, 'always lubricate..." Both sides of the DC do work to control sway at the same time. They're just climbing up oposite ends of the bars saddles/pockets from each other. Notice I never said friction systems dont work - they do but my experince is that the DC works better. I had a friction system for a long time. It worked OK but would tend to wear and get noisy (esp when wet). Seems like it would get contaminated with road scum, etc. To us, the DC is easier and faster to set up than installing the extra friction bar.
ScottG 04/11/20 10:44am Travel Trailers
RE: Help Identifying things in my RV

Seems like a lot of wires for a B/U alarm!
ScottG 04/11/20 10:01am Class C Motorhomes
RE: Weight Distribution with sway control question

Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree. One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC. Good luck to you. Again IMO you clearly have demonstrated a true lack of understanding of these systems since the Equal-i-zer just like the DC Cam also has no friction material either. Both using the metal to metal friction with the DC Cam only using "sliding friction" whereas the Equal-i-zer uses both "rotational" friction from the sockets along with "sliding" friction from the bars in the "L" brackets. Also anytime I see someone trying to use some vague education or experience credentials like your "retired engineer" reference often tells me one has no valid or verifiable position on a subject. While I could try and support my input on the subject being discussed here by saying I have and "actual" masters degree in engineering, but my degree is in "systems engineering" which has no real direct application to the topic of this thread so I don't go there. Thus, I quoted a real mechanical engineer that as Hunting has metioned has posted extensively on various mechanical based subject over a number of years and was a well known and I think respected source of actual factual knowledge of how things like these sway systems work in the real world. With all that I think I have given anyone reading this thread a sufficiently based and referenced good source of information to support the position I have expressed here that the DC Cam system "NEITHER FORCES OR PUSHES" anything ... just like the Equal-i-zer system, it simply "resists" by friction sway movement of a trailer when towed. Larry Your attempt at a passive agressive insult aside, I do understand what Ron wrote back then (I remember it). Ron had his own motivation behind his statements. His post was obtuse and took a long and eloborate path to avoid the true mechanics of what is going on with the DC system. Ron had a bit of an ego and seemed to feel he had to post on things even though he didn't really have an answer. The force of the DC system is no more absolute than the friction systems are. A friction bar resists movement but is not strong enough to cause the truck to drag a trailer sideways after a sharp turn - the bar slips to allow that movement. The friction material itself has a break-over point at which it yields. The DC also has a BO point. As the truck and trailer get out of line, the pocket of the spring bar is forced against the cam (which cannot move in relation to the trailer) and the steep slope of the pocket is forced against the cam. This is the point of greatest force and the trailer is now pushing against this sharp angle in the spring bars. It takes MORE force to climb this steep portion of the spring bar than it would to slide along the straight section of it. For the combination to continue to get more out of line, the bar has to be bent upward. That amount of force is relative. It isn't so great that it cannot be overcome but is is suffcient to provide a "bump" that the trailer has to act against. This is the "active" part because it doesnjust slow down movement, it's pushing back against it. The two parts push against each other with cancelling force until the cam overcomes the pocket and slides along the bar. Sway control is all but lost after this breakover is achieved. Just like the friction device, this relative force is enough to influence the attitude of the combo but not enough to send things sliding. To adress other comments, the leverage at the tongue is not nearly what it is at the back of the trailer - this is true. It doesn't need to be. Would you suggest that a friction bar has no effect because of its location? No, I'm sure you wouldn't. So we know the attitude of the trailer can be influenced in that location. Notice I made that entire post without insulting anyone else posting in this thread?
ScottG 04/11/20 09:11am Travel Trailers
RE: Uninsured & Underinsured Motorist Bodily Insurance

Not mandatory but desirable for the personal injury side. OTOH, if you rig gets damaged your collision is going to fix it even if the other guy isn't covered. Then if he has anything, they'll go after him. You'd be on your own for any personal injury though.
ScottG 04/10/20 09:50pm Class C Motorhomes
RE: Weight Distribution with sway control question

Below is a post from Ron Gratz made HERE several years ago explaining specifically how both the Equal-i-zer and DC cam systems work: The Dual Cam is a friction based anti-sway system. I discussed how it differs from the Equal-i-zer in my previous post. I do not know the magnitudes of anti-sway torques which can be generated by these two systems; but, I'm working on that. A difference between Equal-i-zer and Dual Cam which I did not address is how the sway control affects the ability of the TV and TT to realign once they have developed a relative yaw angle. The Equal-i-zer will produce the same resisting torque whether the TT is trying to move away from the "centered" position or moving away from it. The DC, by virtue of the sloping surfaces on the ends of its WD bars will provide more resistance to moving away from center than to moving toward center. Some see this as an advantage in helping to get the vehicles realigned after a lane change, rounding a curve, etc. The Equal-i-zer differs from a friction-bar anti-sway system in two important ways: 1) It can generate anti-sway torque directly via the trunnions and seats, and 2) It can generate much more torque. A friction bar simply produces a tension or compression in the bar which, in turn, pushes or pulls on the ball to which the end of the bar is attached. This generates a torque on the hitch which helps to control sway. The most commonly used friction bar has an adjustment which determines how much tension/compression it can produce. The magnitude of this is factory-set at 1100#. The center-center distance between the friction-bar ball and the main ball is 5.5". Therefore, at the factory setting, this friction bar can generate about 500 ft-lbs of torque. If you installed one of these bars on each side of the A-frame, the pair could generate about 1000 ft-lbs. One difference between the friction-bar control and the DC and Equal-i-zer is that the friction force on the friction bar can easily be "turned off". Some people believe this is an advantage when towing in reduced-traction conditions. Ron You can readily see that there is NO PUSH OR FORCE in how the DC Cam system works. The cams with their slope only change the amount of "FRICTION RESISTANCE" depending on how far off the trailer is from centerline. Larry Well Larry, as a retired engineer I do understand how such things work and I can explain how lateral force is generated but I don't think you're open to a civil discussion about it. So, there's no reason for me to attempt to do so. We'll just have to agree to disagree. One thing is for certain, there is absolutely no friction material employed in the DC. Good luck to you.
ScottG 04/10/20 08:35pm Travel Trailers
RE: What's happening with your summer gig?

We have reservations for every other weekend during the summer, starting with Memorial day. At this point, our state parks are closed until May 4. I'm cautiously optimistic they'll be open for the Holiday.
ScottG 04/10/20 08:27pm Workamping Forum
RE: The perfect RV campground

I once met a gentleman (worked on his private jet) who flew around the world with he and his buddys family for 5 years researching what made a great Ski resort. Then they built one. If you have time, try to travel to some of the highest rated resorts and see what makes them tick. The one that comes to mind near me is Seven Feathers ("comfort stations" are a BIG plus for us). This place has campers crammed close together but it's still a fabulous place. Also, and I am assuming you're NOT this way but there are some folks that absolutely hate customers in general. They show nothing but contempt for them and side with who ever is against them at every turn. If you feel that way, don't go into this business. I truly wish you the best of luck and hope we can stay at your resort some day. Cheers, Scott
ScottG 04/10/20 05:14pm Family Camping
RE: Watcha working on?

New stereo for garage.
ScottG 04/10/20 03:00pm Toy Haulers
RE: Arctic Fox 30U - looking for advice!

Unless it's crispy, for 2005 I don't think that's a bad deal at all.
ScottG 04/10/20 02:59pm Travel Trailers
RE: How are your solar panels mounted?

My gloriously powerful and efficient factory system is mounted in its entirety to the top of one of my AC units. It does a splendid job of keeping the batterys up (as long as I'm also plugged in...) and making the little controller on the wall put on an impressive show - which I believe, was the whole point of the "solar system". OTOH, I'm sure it adds something. It would do a good job of keeping up with a cell phone charger (for one unused phone).
ScottG 04/10/20 09:39am Travel Trailers
RE: No 12VDC Power

He said it all worked for several days after he put the battery in so not RP. I caught that but if by "all" he meant the (incondescent) lights were working, it could still be in backwards.
ScottG 04/10/20 09:25am Tech Issues
RE: 2011 Flagstaff Classic Super Lite Slideout Struggling

Just taking a shot here but if you lift the flap of carpet at the front of the slide, are there rollers present? They dont usually have ball bearings but it's possible. Scott
ScottG 04/10/20 09:22am Travel Trailers
RE: What day is it?

Since retirement twenty years ago, I use the number of pills in my seven-day pill-minder to tell me what day it is. :B:B:B
ScottG 04/10/20 09:19am General RVing Issues
RE: No 12VDC Power

The clicking part sounds like an auto resetting circuit breaker. If so they are available at any auto parts store. This! Also, is there any chance the battery is hooked up backwards? The colors of battery wiring on RV's can be rather goofy sometimes!
ScottG 04/09/20 10:50pm Tech Issues
RE: 2020 PSD owner compares it to his 2019 PSD towing 18K

"Hydraulic lifters have become more reliable because you don't have to do valve lash adjustments every 150k." Non issue IMHO. Agreed. It took me 30 minutes to do one and that included cleaning and putting my tools away. Also, after the initial 150k adjustment, it really doens't need it again.
ScottG 04/09/20 10:21pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Weight Distribution with sway control question

Huntingdog, I'm sorry but you're wrong on both counts. Yes, it pushes the trailer back in line but there's nothing dangerous about it. I've even had it in the snow. Is the force "significant"? It is enough to do the job, nothing more. It is easily overcome when turning by the weights involved. No, it does not use friction for control. It doesn't use brake material anywhere like other systems do. It uses pure spring pressure via the spring bars pocket climbing up off the cam. You could submerge the entire thing in oil and it would still work the same. Best of luck to you. Scott
ScottG 04/09/20 09:02pm Travel Trailers
RE: Extended warranty. What are your thoughts

Remember that the dealer doesn't pay that much for a warranty so you can dicker with him until he just wont go any lower. The last time I bought a auto makers warranty, they started out at $2800. I told them I'd pay $1k and after lots of going back and forth, he finally sold it to me for that price. He then told me they only pay $800 so anything over that is gravy. BTW, it was a total waste of money - never used it. Haven't bought one since.
ScottG 04/09/20 04:38pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Weight Distribution with sway control question

I've had the Equal-i-zer and it worked well. It was easy for me to install without drilling anything. I've read that the Reese is harder to set up correctly (and RV dealers don't always get it set right, either). The 2-point provides some anti-sway friction, but the 4-point will do more. I liked the Andersen better than the Equal-i-zer mainly because it was easier to deal with chains than heavy, long bars when disconnecting and reconnecting. It worked just as well, too. Only, the Andersen is best for trailers under about 7K lbs as it cannot level the rig properly when there's a lot of tongue weight. True regarding the Reese as it requires additional tweaking once trailer is loaded but a competant dealer should thoroughly explain the function of any WDH to buyer. It may be harder than some but the difficulty lies in having to get the truck and trailer dead straight in order to set the cams up right. After that, hitching up is no harder than any other hitch. The Anderson would be just as important to have dead straight during setup.
ScottG 04/09/20 02:19pm Travel Trailers
RE: Question about trailer brakes

Rubber lines age out, crack or fail internally and you can't tell the quality of a line by looking at it other than seeing it's rubber, which I know isn't the best. Looking at the price of it, there's no way it's can be that high end. It's made to a price-point. "Steel" (or copper nickel) doesn't suffer from any of those issues and it's just the right way to do the job. My drums work surprisingly well. They are the same exact brakes our last TT had (which was 2K# lighter) but have a lot more stopping power for some reason (wiring probably). I can lock them up pretty eassily. Like I wrote, not enough miles a year to justify at this point.
ScottG 04/09/20 11:34am Towing
RE: Converter replacement

Another vote for PDI.
ScottG 04/09/20 11:11am Fifth-Wheels
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