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RE: Converter and Battery Question
If you have not bought your inverter yet, buy on that is a combination inverter/charger/transfer switch. Much easier to install and use ! Basically, you remove/bypass your existing converter charger.
Heavy loads (such as your new inverter/charger) should have their positive and negative (ground) connection directly. If there is a ground bus bar inside of your DC fuse panel, you should run a heavy gauge wire from that to the battery negative post.
Small loads (lights, typical 12VDC outlets) can use the frame ground.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm trying to find a balance between convenience and price. I've looked into inverter chargers, and the decent ones appear to be items like the Victron Multiplus for $1,200 or the GoPower IC 3000 at around $1,400. From what I've read,
other models appear to have issues powering both sides of the 50 amp service.
For half that price I can buy a 3000w inverter, a brand new converter, a 30A outlet to wire to the inverter so I can plug my RV power cord in that way with an adapter, a switch that will automatically cut off power to the converter, and the various wiring and connectors required to connect it all together. I also think that doing it this way will make it so that if a part gets damaged, it's more easily repairable or replaceable than a factory produced single unit.
At least that's the hope anyway...
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avarusbrightfyre
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03/26/20 06:53pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Converter and Battery Question
Solar controller should be close to the battery. You will pull new wire direct from the controller to the battery terminals. Main battery ground wire to the frame remains connected.
Gotcha. I've been researching solar setups in preparation for my eventual install, and couldn't remember how that connection worked. Thanks for the response.
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avarusbrightfyre
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03/26/20 10:02am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Converter and Battery Question
The battery can be grounded to the frame wherever it's convenient to do so. With a solar controller, that doesn't need to change for any reason; the battery negative side of the controller can likewise be connected to a convenient chassis ground location (not necessarily the same one as the battery). The frame does provide a good, low-impedance path for the current, provided the connections to it are good and clean and tight. You'd be hard-pressed to create a better, lower-impedance connection with a wire in most cases.
Any halfway modern system will basically have the converter, the battery, and the DC fuse panel connected in parallel, ignoring the battery disconnect switch for the moment. This may be physicallly accomplished by having the converter connect to lugs on the DC distribution panel, basically making it be the junction point for all three, but electrically it's equivalent in theory. Others have the converter wired more or less directly to the battery lugs, or perhaps to some intermediate bus bar or other junction point. In any case, the converter does supply power not only to the battery but to the rest of the 12V system when plugged in, since they're all interconnected. A standard battery charger clamped to the battery would do the exact same thing, for the same reasons. You continue to have 12V power when unplugged simply because the battery is now carrying the load, and you have a working battery.
The specific details of what connects together physically and in what locations is somewhat more variable than the basic electrical setup. Fiddling around with those connection points is perfectly reasonable, provided of course you employ appropriate electrical safety practices, such as making sure sufficient overcurrent protection (fuses) are there for the circuits you reroute.
It is perhaps worth observing that modifying the converter connections may alter how the system behaves if the battery disconnect switch is used to disconnect the battery. If the converter is connected to the electric panel (or anywhere on that side of the switch), then it will power the 12V system when the battery is disconnected but not charge the battery. If it's on the battery side, then it would charge the battery but the 12V system for the RV would have no power. Neither one is especially desirable in most situations.
My converter is connected to the panel side of the battery disconnect. I have to switch of the disconnect and the AC main circuit breaker to stop power flow on the 12V side, which I figured out when I installed my vent fans last year.
I believe I might go with the suggestion of buying a separate converter and leaving the factory one in place. That way I can get an upgraded unit and I can just keep the factory one turned off...and avoid the extra wire routing for the automatic shutoff I want to try.
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avarusbrightfyre
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03/26/20 10:01am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Converter and Battery Question
The battery neg wire to frame still goes to the frame. The neg wire from the solar controller goes to the battery.
When the converter is unplugged you still get 12v from the battery. The converter only works if you have 120v from shore power or generator. (it also works from the inverter, but you don't want it to or you get that infamous "loop")
You can just buy a deck mount converter and put it up with the inverter and battery bank and leave the original converter where it is. No big wiring job. Put the controller in there too.
The battery bank needs a vented box because you don't want the inverter and converter to get ruined by battery fumes or the fumes to get a spark from the inverter. AGMs get around all that.
Good to know. I plan on either AGM or LifePo4 drop in equivalents at this point for the batteries.
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avarusbrightfyre
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03/26/20 09:55am |
Tech Issues
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Converter and Battery Question
Hello all,
I plan on installing an inverter in my travel trailer in the near future, as well as moving my battery from outside the trailer to the front storage compartment to minimize the distance between the battery and inverter, as well as reduce the possibility of theft once I upgrade my battery bank to something more expensive.
My first question is about the ground wire for the battery. It is currently grounded to the frame outside the coach, meaning the positive wire connects to the trailer electrical system, and the ground just dumps to the frame. I'm assuming that if I move the battery inside, I just need to reroute the ground to wire into the storage compartment and to the battery, correct? It doesn't need to be connected to anything else? What about when I eventually install a solar charge controller? Just need to move the negative battery cable to the controller and ground the controller at that point, right?
My second question is about the converter. My electrical panel has a breaker for the converter that allows me to shut it off, and when I do that the 12V system still appears to work just fine. I have the type that plugs into an AC outlet, not one that is wired directly into the panel. I've read online that sometimes removing the converter completely can disable the 12V system, which I suppose means the converter not only charges the battery, but also powers the 12V when plugged into shore power. Is this accurate, or is the 12V side of the panel powered directly by the battery? Is it different for different manufacturers? I'd like to relocate the converter to be next to the battery setup so everything battery related is together, but if I have to run wire through the coach to do it I think I might not bother. My RV came with the "extreme weather" package, so the entire bottom is covered with insulation, and I'm not confident I can run the wire through the floor without hitting obstructions.
Thanks!
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avarusbrightfyre
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03/26/20 09:06am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
Yes, the backflow valve is in the pump, found that on some YouTube videos.
I looked at a post that mentioned running lots of water using the pump and sure enough after 10 minutes of continuous flow from multiple faucets the valve must have reseated and the water stopped entering the fresh water tank.
Ron W.
Good to know. I'll try to remember that for next time. Thanks for the info!
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/24/20 08:02am |
Tech Issues
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Water Pumps
I'm pretty ignorant about water pumps, but from the way that RV pumps rattle I'm guessing the pumping mechanism is some sort of back and forth motion like a piston. Assuming that's correct, what is the reason a more spin based design like a turbine or impeller isn't used? I would imagine it would be available for purchase if it were viable, but I can't seem to find anything like that.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/15/20 03:55pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Propane vs Electric Heating
Hi,
Here is a calculator that allows you to "plug in" the costs:
http://www.maxmcarter.com/fuels/fuelscalc.html
So I know this will vary widely by location, but I live in Southern California and I'm curious to know which would be the more cost effective solution. Electricity out here is expensive, but I think propane is too. Does anyone out here in SoCal have any experience with both that can shed some light on the cost of each? If it's about the same, I'll probably invest in some space heaters so I don't have to lug the tank to refill so often.
Ok, so this calculator put out the following:
The Cost of Heat
Electric vs Fuels - Comparison Result
Electric rate (per kilowatt-hour) = 0.280
Cost of heat (per 100,000 BTU) = 8.21
Propane cost per gallon = 2.50
Burner efficiency factor = 60%
Cost of heat (per 100,000 BTU) = 4.51
So it looks like propane wins by quite a bit.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/15/20 08:27am |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Propane vs Electric Heating
Probably the more accurate way to compare costs is to figure cost per BTU. One kWh is equivalent to 3412 BTU, assuming 100% conversion efficiency from electricity to heat, and for an electric space heater it's close enough to 100% efficiency to disregard the error.
For propane, it's about 21,500 BTU per pound or 91,500 BTU per gallon when burned, but the RV furnace is nowhere near 100% efficient; 60% or thereabout might be closer to accurate. Assuming a 20 pound tank that you're getting filled to its full usable capacity (and not exchanging for one filled to only 75%), your $18 in propane is buying somewhere around 15,000 BTU of heat in the RV per dollar. If your electricity is cheaper than about $.20 per kWh, you're saving money heating electrically; if it's more than about $.25 per kWh, propane is probably cheaper; and if it's in between, they're pretty close to a wash. The exact numbers do of course depend on the efficiency of your particular furnace.
My trailer came with two 30 lb tanks, and at 2.50 or something like that per gallon it takes about $18-20 to fill one tank. I'm currently paying about $.27 per kWh on my electric bill.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 06:23pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Propane vs Electric Heating
If you are staying in one spot for a while, check with the propane place and see if they will place a larger tank and fill it onsite.
I'm living in a long term trailer/RV park that doesn't allow us to put anything like that in our space. This place is way cheaper than anything else around and doesn't have stay limits, so that's why I'm here.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 06:08pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Propane vs Electric Heating
Electric when on-grid (pay per night camping). Propane when off-grid dry camping.
If you are running on a meter, then it becomes a math problem. Electrical: Wattage of heater, hours run per day, cost of a kilowatt/hr, determine a dollar amount for daily usage. Propane: Cost to fill the tanks, estimated days per tank, determine a dollar amount for daily usage. One will be cheaper. My bet is on electric will be cheaper.
Ultimately you need to plug in the numbers and do the math. It will be different for all of us.
-Eric
Ok, so I need to make sure I'm doing my math right. Most of the space heaters I'm seeing are 1500 watts. I estimate 6 hours per day (cutting on an off from 6 pm to 6 am). It might be less, but I'm not sure. 1500 watts x 6 hours = 9 kwh. Current price per kwh for electric is $0.28, which puts me at about $2.52 per day, or $35 for two weeks.
My average price to fill a tank is about $18 every 10 days or so, or about $25 per 2 weeks, so it appears on the surface that propane is cheaper.
I guess now the question is am I willing to spend $20 per month for the convenience of not having to cart the tank around every 10 days. My first guess is probably yes, lol.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 03:53pm |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Propane vs Electric Heating
I'm currently living full time in a permanent metered location.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 11:08am |
General RVing Issues
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Propane vs Electric Heating
So I know this will vary widely by location, but I live in Southern California and I'm curious to know which would be the more cost effective solution. Electricity out here is expensive, but I think propane is too. Does anyone out here in SoCal have any experience with both that can shed some light on the cost of each? If it's about the same, I'll probably invest in some space heaters so I don't have to lug the tank to refill so often.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 10:34am |
General RVing Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
Ok, so this should be the final update. I got the new pump installed and the fresh tank does not appear to be filling after sitting overnight. Pump works and runs fixtures, city water works and runs fixtures. Looks like the issue is solved for now. In the end, it looks like the pump was the original culprit.
However, I'm not comfortable yet because one of the flair-it fittings started leaking. I don't know if it was a bad connection or if it's a failing in the design or what. I replaced the leaking one with a crimp fitting and it seems to be fine now. Just a shame that it started while I was at work and there's some water damage. I'll be keeping an eye on it for the next couple of weeks.
Thanks to everyone for the help!
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/14/20 09:57am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
I agree on that. It's way better that you found this now than two hours away out at a remote campsite.
If you are retaining the PEX (hard plastic lines) be careful with the worm drive hose clamps. They are easy to strip when tightening enough to compress the PEX. Home Depot will have the crimp rings and crimpers for the PEX lines in the plumbing section if you want to go that route. Also if you are using flexible lines make sure they are rated to handle the city water pressure. Up in my neighborhood I've seen 120 lbs pressure coming off the street. So I always use a pressure regulator when I hook up to city water.
I am retaining all the PEX connections and so far nothing appears to be leaking at all. Ideally I won't have to deal with this again for a very long time, but I'll look out for stripping things next time. The entire trailer is using braided PEX, so I think it's beefier than the thinner stuff.
I did a lot of research before buying my trailer and I do have a pressure regulator that is set to around 55 PSI, which is what my pump maxes out at as well. I'm currently only getting 40 from the city, though. San Diego isn't great for water pressure.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/11/20 03:09pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
Another update: I got all my plumbing hooked up the way I want it and now everything works as it originally did, but now everything is screw on and easily removable if needed. It turns out the the flair-it fittings aren't sized for braided 1/2 PEX and it wouldn't fit, and that was giving me a lot of grief until a friend suggested I soak the end in really hot water to make it more flexible. That did the trick and it took like ten minutes to get everything finally hooked up again.
I did do some troubleshooting before hooking up the tank fill line, however. I ran water with the valve set to city and there was no leakage from the tank fill side of the valve even when under city pressure. This leads me to believe that the suggestion that the water pump leaking back into the tank was the correct one. I already have a replacement pump on order and it arrives next week, so we'll see if this solves the unwanted tank filling issue and my trailer is back to 100%.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/11/20 03:06pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
I'm still working on getting things replaced, but I think I might start using the RV side primarily and just using city water to fill the tank. I still have to do weekly emptying of my black tank anyway, so it wouldn't be that much of a change. It will also keep the pump from sitting for long periods without being used, and I've noticed that in general mechanical parts don't like to just sit unused.
As of right now, I've bypassed my selector valve and have the water inlet connected straight to the hose that goes to the plumbing fixtures. I'm slowly collecting parts to put everything back together mostly the way it was, except that I'm going to use screw on connectors for the selector valve connections instead of clamps or crimps. That way I can just unscrew everything if I need to take the valve out in the future.
It also turns out that my water pump is bad, so I have a replacement coming in for that as well. It really sucks because it's barely been used at all...like a few times for demo before purchase, and this one time when I was testing everything out. I'm taking this opportunity to install a dc connector plug so that the only wiring I have to do for future replacements is on the pump side and it will just plug right in.
While no one is every happy to have to fix things, part of me is glad this happened now so I can figure out how all this works while I have easy access to parts and city connections.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/08/20 08:34am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
So as a temporary fix, I decided to adjust the plumbing to bypass the tank select valve completely so that way whatever is causing the problem is also bypassed and the city water won't leak into the tank. Turned out to be way harder than I thought. The factory setup had permanently affixed connections to most of the fittings in that area, which makes absolutely no sense to me, but whatever. I'm going to order parts to make all the connections in that area screw on connectors so I can easily pull out parts for cleaning, o-ring replacement, and whatever else might be needed. If the pump still has issues after that, which I'm sure it will because of that one screw, I'll replace it as well and see if that rectifies the issue. At the end of the day, though, I just don't want water leaking out of my trailer.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/05/20 08:49pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
Ok, so I was poking around in my water intake area trying to figure out getting the valve out, and now I'm noticing that my water pump is kicking on every few seconds for like a 1 second burst, which I assume means it's losing pressure somewhere?
Yes, it's leaking backwards into the tank. Do as I posted earlier or I guess just learn to live with it.
I took the pump apart as suggested, rinsed everything out and then put it back together. Still has the same problem. I did notice that one of the screw threads is stripped so one of them isn't tightening down. It's one of the middle ones, so I don't know how much that would affect the seal.
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/05/20 04:40pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Fresh Tank Filling on City Water
Ok, so I was poking around in my water intake area trying to figure out getting the valve out, and now I'm noticing that my water pump is kicking on every few seconds for like a 1 second burst, which I assume means it's losing pressure somewhere?
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avarusbrightfyre
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01/05/20 03:23pm |
Tech Issues
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