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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
So with the rocker, you can push MOM and now the solenoid closes, then you turn the key to "Start" and instead of the solenoid opening as when powered from the engine battery, it stays closed from being powered by the house battery?
So you should turn off the heater fan etc yourself to reduce the total drain on the house when starting?
As I understand it, when pushing and holding the spring-loaded MOM side of the rocker, it manually (from you pushing and holding the button) energizes the solenoid from the house batteries. It does not care what the key position is.
As long as you hold MOM down, the house and engine batteries will be ganged together. Normally you turn the key to start the engine at this time, and when the engine is running, you release the MOM button, whereupon the rocker returns to the center "off" position, and the charging solenoid disengages.
Yes if your house batteries are low then you might want to turn off house energy users to maximize what the house batteries can do.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/20/20 07:32pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
I don't know. I have already ordered a replacement solenoid. It is suspect to me already because when the engine battery was down to 11.6V, and I pressed MOM to gang in the house batteries, the voltage did not change, or change much.
I've got to do some diagnosing on the charging system. But for now it seems fine.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/20/20 04:10pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Ford Starting /House Charging Question UPDATE Test
If my house batteries are very low and will not turn my generator over, can I engage the "engine emergency start" button to start the generator?Not trying hijack the thread, but it seems to be related.
I think so. But I can't do it on my rig because my arms aren't long enough. :)
My 3-way rocker switch with MOM (emergency start) is on the dash by the driver. The generator start switch is either on the generator or back on the stove vent hood.
My generator starts from the engine battery. I would have to get a helper to hold the MOM switch in order to start the generator from the engine battery.
A better solution would be to use the house batteries to start the engine, and then start the generator using the current provided by the alternator (and let the alternator charge up the engine battery).
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maillemaker
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01/20/20 07:43am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Ford Starting /House Charging Question UPDATE Test
How can the key be in run and the engine not started?
If the engine were running and died by some other means than using the key to turn it off, (out of gas, pop clutch, etc.) then the engine could be off but the key in RUN.
In normal operation, however, the engine will be running when the key is in the RUN position. But there is also a START key position and this is different from RUN. Many times things are disconnected in START that are connected when in RUN. This is so the engine starter motor gets all the current. You might notice your radio turning off when starting, for example.
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maillemaker
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01/20/20 07:39am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Ford Starting /House Charging Question UPDATE Test
Here is what I think:
On my RV (1990 Winnebago Warrior, Ford E350 chassis), the Charging Solenoid, which gangs the house and chassis batteries together, is activated 1 of 2 ways:
FIRST WAY:
Momentary Position of rocker switch:
This uses power from the HOUSE BATTERIES to energize the solenoid. This is a "jump start position", and is to be used when the engine battery is dead. Thus logically you would want to use the house batteries, and not the engine battery, to energize the solenoid.
SECOND WAY:
DUAL position of rocker switch:
This uses the engine battery (or alternator if engine is running) to energize the Charging Solenoid. But, it is hooked up to the RUN position of the key.
When you START the engine, typically all other accessories are OFF. I can see this when I start my engine as all of my aftermarket gauges turn on when I switch to RUN, but turn OFF when I keep turning to START, and turn back on again when I let go of the key and it goes back to RUN.
My guess is that the Charging Solenoid is only energized when:
* Rocker Switch is in DUAL mode.
* Key is in RUN position.
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maillemaker
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01/20/20 07:15am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
So with no house charging from alternator, the engine battery showed low voltage as though no alternator, but new alternator same thing. You might have had a big house draw that should have been taken by the house batts that was taken by the engine batt, lowering the voltage.
It's possible, but the only things running in the back should have been the refrigerator, water pump in standby, TV in standby, and the Propane/CO detector.
And I'm not even sure I had the batteries ganged at that point anyway.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/18/20 08:46am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
How much time between starting the rig and the voltage going up?
It could be the chassis battery had to come up a little before circuit board allowed relay to energize.
Try to locate the battery control circuit board and post number.
You may be OK!
I replaced the alternator, and then started the engine. Volts showed about 11.6V as I recall on my cigarette-lighter voltmeter.
I got out of the cab, whacked the solenoid, and came back, and it was showing 14V.
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maillemaker
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01/18/20 08:40am |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
But still want to know about why the loss of voltage as was asked about earlier.
Loss of charging was what precipitated my replacing the alternator. After replacing the alternator, I still had low voltage as indicated by a voltmeter plugged into the cigarette lighter (and a status indicator wired to the chassis batter).
When I whacked the house battery charging solenoid, and then got back in the vehicle, the volts were back up to 14.0 volts. So I assumed that the Charging Solenoid had something to do with the chassis charging circuit.
Now I see it does not.
So I don't know what caused the drop-out.
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maillemaker
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01/17/20 07:17pm |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
Yes, I have an owner's manual, thanks. A digital one is always nice to have also.
I think I have a basic understanding of how the charging/isolation circuit works now.
I agree this should have nothing to do with chassis system voltage so my whacking on the solenoid was just luck.
I'll have to do some more investigating.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/17/20 10:57am |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
Dual Mode should only energize when the ignition is on though.
Again, I think this is the key I was not understanding before.
All the solenoid does is gang the two batteries together, MOM or DUAL it is the same.
The difference is where the power source comes from to energize the solenoid.
With MOM, it comes from the house batteries.
With DUAL, it comes from the ignition switch (engine batteries).
The reason is because in MOM it is assumed the engine battery is dead. And by making the switch spring loaded, you can't permanently gang the batteries together and pull down the house batteries.
In Dual, you want to charge, so the rocker "sticks" in that position, but you don't want to use your engine battery as a house battery (and risk draining your engine battery) so the solenoid disengages when the ignition is off, thus isolating the engine battery.
Before this thought exercise, I was assuming there were two different ways of achieving the ganging together of the house and engine batteries. In reality, there is only one way. The Charging Solenoid gangs them together. The only difference is who is energizing the solenoid.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/17/20 06:43am |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
The momentary switch is for temporary tying system together for emergency start.
The dual function is for charging the batteries.
Yes, I understood that much previously. But I thought there was some special or separate circuit for ganging the batteries together for charging vs. for boost.
If I understand correctly now, both ways the batteries are ganged together the exact same way.
The only difference is how the solenoid is switched on.
In the Dual position, the solenoid is only energized if the ignition is on. This way the batteries will not be ganged together if the engine is off, so your chassis battery cannot be depleted by running house things.
In the Momentary position, the solenoid is energized from the house bank, whether the ignition is on or off.
But in either case, the effect is to gang both batteries together. The only difference is which power source energizes the solenoid.
Does that sound correct?
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 06:09pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
I think I understand enough now to do some basic testing of the RV battery system anyway, so I can better understand what is happening. This whole thing has pretty much been a black box to me until today.
If I disconnect the chassis battery and hook up my volt meter to the free-hanging chassis battery terminals, and then I turn on the ignition and set the rocker switch to DUAL, no voltage should be seen at the chassis battery terminals since the chassis battery is disconnected, and thus it cannot power the Charging Solenoid.
If I then hold the rocker switch to MOM, I should see house battery voltage at the chassis battery terminals, since the house battery powers the Charging Solenoid in the MOM position.
If I reconnect the chassis battery and disconnect the house battery terminals, and I check for voltage on the house battery terminals, with the ignition OFF and the rocker set to DUAL I should get no voltage at the house battery terminals. With the ignition ON I should see chassis battery voltage at the house battery terminals.
Does this sound right?
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 01:28pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
On the left side of the relay detail, it shows a wire going to the chasiis battery battery solenoid. It does not indicate size of wire. Your photo shows it as one of the large red.
Yes, I agree. The Chassis Battery solenoid inputs to the Charging Solenoid on the left side of the relay.
Do these letter designations mean it should be the same wire? I'm confused why LR is 16 PR on one and 13 PR on the other. Typo?
https://i.imgur.com/bWZuIdX.png
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 01:20pm |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
On your year model Winne
1. THAT solenoid you replaced should NOT have anything to do with the Chassis Alternator charging the Chassis battery.
2. That continuous duty solenoid you replaced does 2 things. When the inside dash switch is engaged on the DUAL indent, it sends a 12 volt signal to that solenoid to close and the chassis and Coach batteries are connected and the Chassis Alternator charges both battery banks. That DUAL position is energized ONLY when the Ignition key is ON.
3. The MOM spring loaded side of the switch is wired to the Coach batteries. When you push and hold MOM(momentary), it uses a 12 volt signal from the Coach batteries to engage that solenoid and combine the Chassis and Coach to start the engine when the chassis battery is low or dead.
4. Almost all motorhomes do not tamper with the Chassis maker Alternator to charge the Chassis battery when engine is ON. There are a few exceptions but very few. The add on controls and solenoids are to charge the Coach batteries when engine is running and to keep the batteries separated when the engine is OFF.
5. IF that solenoid you replaced also kept the chassis from charging, then I will bet someone has miswired the battery cables over the years. Doug
OK, I think I am getting a clearer picture, thanks Doug.
So the Charging Solenoid is used both when the switch is to the left AND to the right. So both left and right just gang the house batteries to the chassis battery.
The difference is, the DUAL option only works when the ignition is also on, but the MOM option works whether the ignition is on or off? Is that right?
I always thought there were two different circuits as the relay made a bigger "clunk" noise when in the MOM position than when in the DUAL position. But maybe I just couldn't notice because the engine is always running when I go to DUAL position.
It could be that it was just chance/luck that when I tapped the solenoid it started charging again.
When I first pulled off the road, I waited a minute, and suddenly it started charging again. Almost left to get back on the road and then the voltage fell off again. This is when I assumed it was a bad alternator. But when I replaced the alternator and fired up the engine, it was still at like 11.6V through the cigarette lighter volt meter. Then I went and whacked the Charging Solenoid and it jumped up to 14V. I had no other issues the entire drive home (6 hours).
It could be something else unrelated.
Also note I have purchased the Charging Solenoid but I have not yet replaced it.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 01:04pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
OK, I've examined this wiring schematic, and I don't really follow what is going on. I know a little bit about wiring schematics, but I'm not able to follow here.
It looks to me like power comes to the Charging Relay from the Chassis Relay. The Chassis Relay comes with the Ford Chassis. I assume this is the starter relay? Or is this a different relay?
Anyway it seems to send power over to the Charging Relay.
The 3-way switch in the cab. If I hold it to the right, it is in boost mode. If it is in the middle, I think it is "off", and if you click it to the left, it should charge the house battery if the engine is running. (But I do not think it will discharge the house battery if the engine is off). I believe this switch is shown in View C-C.
The schematic references something called "battery changeover". I don't know what that means.
It looks to me like the Chassis Relay sends power to the left side of the Charging Relay (see View A-A).
The right side of the Charging Relay sends power to the 4 Circuit Breakers. So, when the Charging Relay is energized, it is then powering the 4 circuit breakers.
If I'm reading it right, wire LR is the center position of the 3-way rocker.
I'm not sure how to read the wire designations. LR, KE, LS, etc.
In view C-C, LR is shown as 16 gauge purple. But in view A-A. LR is shown as 14 gauge purple. I assumed these were the same wire (LR ?) but since they are different gauges I guess not.
So looking at this I still do not understand what is physically happening to the circuit in Boost mode, Charge mode, and the middle.
And I don't see how this is related to chassis battery charging, if at all. Maybe the Chassis solenoid is actually bad? Is this the same as the Starter Relay?
Sorry for being so confused here.
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 12:56pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
My model is a 1991 WF327RT My chassis is a 1990 E350.
I think this is me:
http://www.winnebagoind.com/diagram/1991/101059.pdf
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 12:39pm |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
OP: go to Winnebago website and down load wiring diagrams for your rig to verify.
Winnebago Warrior
This is great info, thanks! Hopefully I can learn how this charging circuit works. It's currently all a mystery to me.
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 12:27pm |
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
What did I miss?
Charge/jump start relay, should not keep alternator from powering vehicle, standard dash gauge is for vehicle battery
Sounds like dirty connections for battery cable and stater cable etc.. At the relay
My dash ammeter has never worked. I have plugged a voltmeter/USB receptacle device into my cigarette lighter. This tells me chassis system voltage and it beeps if it drops below 12 volts.
It is similar to this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MRPIK1S
The vehicle is a 1990 Winnebago Warrior built on an E350 chassis. It has a 100 amp alternator.
First, we swapped out the external voltage regulator. This had no effect. I then replaced the alternator. This also had no effect. I tried the momentary on switch to gang the house batteries to the engine battery (boost mode), and this had no effect on registered chassis voltage, which made me suspect the solenoid.
I went and gave the solenoid a whack, and then my chassis voltage jumped back up to 14 volts. I assumed that the solenoid was somehow in the charging circuit.
I don't understand how the electronics of the house/chassis charge/off/boost switch work.
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 12:25pm |
Tech Issues
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RE: Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
I decided to go with a made-in-USA option.
https://pjpowerinc.com/p/008188-01-000
They matched the Winnebago price of $45. After reading the reviews about how some people had failures I decided not to risk it and pay more for the USA-made part.
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 11:54am |
Tech Issues
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Need help replacing charging circuit solenoid.
Last weekend I was driving down the road and my voltage started dropping off while driving. I assumed I had a bad alternator, so I stopped and bought a new one and replaced it, and it did not help.
I pushed my in-cab momentary rocker switch to gang the house batteries to the engine battery and was puzzled that I did not see an increase in system voltage.
So I took my wrench out and whacked the solenoid, and lo and behold the system started charging again.
This is my solenoid:
https://i.imgur.com/UsT3n2Al.jpg
Hi-res photo of the above is here: https://i.imgur.com/UsT3n2A.jpg
Winnebago will sell me one for about $45, and these guy sell one for $41:
https://www.winnebagoparts.com/3-post-battery-change-over-solenoid/#prettyPhoto
But I believe this is the same, or equivalent, 3-post solenoid, for $17.50:
https://www.amazon.com/May-Continuous-Solenoid-Terminal-71580-75/dp/B0797WZBD9
The above amazon solenoid is rated as "continuous duty", and "200 Amps".
I believe the amazon solenoid will do. What do you all think?
My RV has a 3-way rocker switch. Pushed to the left it will lock, and this will allow the engine to charge the house batteries. Pushed to the right it is momentary (you have to hold it) and it will gang the house batteries to the engine battery for an emergency start. In the middle it is "off" and does nothing.
The Winnebago part number for the solenoid is 008188-01-000
Steve
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maillemaker
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01/16/20 11:14am |
Tech Issues
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