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RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

you will not find one single OEM Engineer that will have this conversation with you. Legal liabilities to mfg are extremely high, and that engineer would be fired on the spot. I gave you some suggestions to do your own research. What did you find doing a comparison between 1T and 3/4T. Crawl under the trucks and compare part numbers between same model year trucks. Good suggestions, thanks. I don't have access to many '16 Powerstrokes in different variants (250/350) unfortunately, just my own. But, I am not giving up...
ognend 04/13/21 08:22pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Ognend....gvwr and gvwr based payload sticker numbers are always a hot item on rv websites. This from another rv website weight thread ..... grindstone01 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: FULL TIMERS Posts: 2,325 Registry *** I'm a retired auto engineer and Marketing has a big impact on GVWR. As a engineer, it was our job to make sure the frame, brakes and powertrain components were designed well above the GVWR ratings that Marketing wanted, so we would design in a safety factor for each component. You don't really think we would build a truck and then test it to determine what the surprise GVWR number should be! Axle ratings are also well above the GVWR rating and in commercial vehicles, axle ratings are the pay load determining factor and even they have a big safety factor designed into them. It would be unusual for a lawyer to accept a overweight case unless it was grossly over the safety factor weight and even then a vehicle manufacture would not share that info because it is not a hard fast number that will break if one more pound is added. There are many videos of million pound plus loads being moved by trucks across country. It's all about the axles.*** Your on the right track...so enjoy the truck/trailer combo. We really like our old '03 2500 Dodge/Cummins HO NV5600 manual tranny pulling our even older '97 11200-11400 lb rv trailer all over the USA. I wish I never sold my '06 Duramax - best and stoutest truck I ever owned. I have been trying to find an old IDI or pre-2003 TD to learn on, but boy, people are asking crazy money for them :)
ognend 04/13/21 04:44am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

You want to exceed payload capacity, that's your business. I don't want to exceed the REAL payload capacity but I need to know what this REAL number is. I am questioning whether the number on the sticker is a REAL number or a number made to fit a GVWR limiting rating. In other words, is the sticker payload capacity just made up to make up the difference to 10,000 GVWR or is it a REAL number based on the ACTUAL components of the vehicle I own. Are you aware of all the suspension, tires, and axle differences between a higher capacity truck and your truck? It used to be, and it's been a long time since I looked, the 1 ton spring is slightly different to the 3/4 ton, with an extra leaf. I also know there are lower capacity tires available on both models. You also have to deal with GVWR differences between 1T and 3/4T. I believe the rear axle is the same for the same ratio. Instead of someone listing POSSIBLE differences, it would be nice if they could list the ACTUAL differences. Then we can have an ACTUAL conversation? In fact, it would not really be a conversation. If you can list the differences and explain to me why my truck can only take 2184lbs on the rear axle, I am selling it tomorrow, it's not like I was born in it.... :) You're convinced you're absolutely right and don't think Ford measured things correctly. I will tell you that most OEM engineers are generally top of the heap, getting recruited from all the top schools. I am not convinced in anything but it would be nice if we could sit down with the ACTUAL algorithm used at Ford to determine the payload capacity number. I find it extremely suspicious that my weight rating is EXACTLY 2184 lbs, for example. Look, I own my truck outright. As per KBB, I could probably get $50K for it. I could take that $50K and go get the new 7.3L Godzilla Ford or the new 6.6L Chevy gasser. Both are in the 3500-3700 lbs payload ratings, way more than what I need. They would be new trucks, with warranties etc. I would even probably have money left over to take the missus somewhere nice - most of the Chevys I would consider are in the $42-45K range, for example. But I need to know that I am going to be jumping through all these hoops for a reason. Thanks!
ognend 04/13/21 04:34am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

The OP asks a technical question that requires a deep technical & engineering process answer, then dismisses it as too technical...only wanting an answer that fits what they want to hear...to which think they don’t truly know what they want to hear... Done with trying to help and blocking this one...bye... If you can point out where I rejected your deeply technical answer, I will gladly apologize. Thank you.
ognend 04/12/21 06:03pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

I am the OP. This all started with my own epiphany that you can have (on paper) a towing capacity of 15,000 lbs but the payload capacity (on paper/sticker) of only 2000 lbs or so. Since some trailers (mostly horse trailers with living quarters in front) are front heavy, it seems to me contradictory to have a vehicle that can tow behind it X lbs but at the point of attachment only take 1/7th of the lbs. So, I am faced with two choices: 1. "Obey" the sticker, sell the truck and buy one that has a bigger sticker! or 2. Try to understand how the payload capacity number is arrived at and after doing so, make an educated decision about what to do next. Someone pointed me to the RAWR - take your truck to the scales and get the proper payload capacity number scheme. I did so, months after I started the thread and by my calculations I actually have just the payload capacity in the latter scheme to haul the horse trailer I want. Then some jack * ss piled onto my revelation and started writing short replies about how I am picking numbers out of a hat (he must have thought were witty and insightful - they were not but they spurred on 3 more pages of discussion. Sigh.). P.S. I do not live and breathe the realm of trucks and towing and how they are certified etc. I am just a consumer. However, I feel that if I will "consume" a $60,000 vehicle, I might as well try to understand what, where, how and why. I was initially also worried about the legal aspect of the "am I overweight" equation but am no more... P.P.S. In my "journey", I have considered various options - buying a new gasser with the money I could get from my not-so-perfect diesel; buying an older IDI/TDI diesel from the pre-2000 era, so on and so on. However, I figured that right now I have a truck that works - and I may as well try to figure out if it will work for my application.
ognend 04/12/21 02:33pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Just make up your own sticker and slap it over Fords and call it good. Looking online for someone to tell you it is OK..... Is hilarious. There will ALWAYS be someone that will agree with you.... But the ones that COUNT, are the Ford engineers. You say you are an engineer. So get a job with Ford and see if you can straighten them out. But see, I am not looking for someone to agree with me. To be honest, it would be nice to understand (for example), how the payload number has actually been arrived at. I asked you this in a previous reply - do you know? Is it a number (2184lbs in my case) that has been "made to fit" into the 10,000 lbs GVWR because of legal interpretations and the class of vehicle sold (3/4 ton truck) or is it the actual components and their combinations that make up this number. Can you actually answer that question? You keep telling me to join Ford to answer it - but can YOU actually answer it? If you can't - why are you still in this discussion? That's an honest question :) Another question: what is the relevance of 6100 lbs RAWR rating published on the same sticker? Can you answer that question? Why would I need to join Ford? I am not looking to strengthen a truck :). In fact, with the prices of used vehicles right now, I could easily sell this Ford for $50K (Kelley Blue book says $51K in private sale) and buy the new 7.3L gasser Ford or the 6.6L new Chevy gasser 3/4 ton truck and "instantly" get an official payload sticker of 3500-3700 lbs - for the weight I am towing, they would be perfectly adequate! I would STILL have the same questions, however - how were these numbers arrived at and are they real numbers dictated by components? Yes, there is some part of this equation of selling in a private sale and buying new (the hassle of doing all of these) that maybe I don't want to go through - so I am trying to figure out if whatever I have will work for my application - before I put myself through it all. Thanks.
ognend 04/12/21 04:40am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Sounds to me like you should get a job with Ford. Then you would be able to properly rate their vehicles. I bet they would love to have you on board. Sounds to me like you actually have nothing to offer in this discussion. I have not seen you say anything of consequence except offer short zingers, thinking they are funny.
ognend 04/12/21 03:50am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

(for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?). The answer is so obvious that even a Caveman/Engineer can get it. If they picked 10,500, then people would be complaining, saying "Why 10,500 instead of 10,000. They needed to pick a number, so they did. End of story. Yes but see an engineer would then wonder whether the numbers on the stickers (like payload capacity) are "engineered" to fit the 10,000 lbs (as in on paper) or if the components are actually engineered to fit the 10,000 number or...? In other words - are you actually physically building components/systems to fit within a number or are you slapping numbers on stickers just to make the numbers fit (regardless of what the actual components are)? The caveman, on the other hand, would just jump to the "end of story" conclusion, yeah? So, do you actually know the answer to the question above or are you just here to have some fun? ;) P.S. I should say that I came here wondering about legal limits and definitions but ended up more interested in what my truck can handle - supported by actual engineering/numbers.
ognend 04/11/21 07:57pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

don't like the number on the door sticker, you just get to pick a new number? Interesting way of dealing with payload capacity. And this is an overtly ignorant statement, obviously backed by your lack of knowledge about vehicle construction and specifications. ROFLMAO, <-- multi decade OEM Sr Engineer, currently working on powertrains. See, I am picking a number because I do not understand the way my payload capacity number was picked in the first place. How did Ford arrive at 2184 lbs and not 2180 or 2190 or 2185? If they published ALL the factors that go into coming up with this number, I would not have to pick it, would I? If you can explain the process, please do. Thanks! P.S. I am an engineer as well and I know that many times numbers are not arrived at solely based on components - there is a lot of legal implications to what things are published and why (for example, in some states 10,000 GVWR is some kind of a legal cutoff for things - how did the state arrive at this number? Why 10,000? Why not 10,500?). Also, why publish a RAWR number if all I am supposed to look at is a payload capacity number? Is the latter for legal purposes only (to fit into the 10,000 GVWR calculation) or is it an actual calculation based on components, tolerances etc.? Or am I just blindly to assume things? If I am going to own a $60,000 piece of hardware, do I not have the right to know EXACTLY how a certain number was arrived at? Or do I just get to be laughed at by some jumped up engineer who thinks that we are all too dumb to understand things so (s)he will not bother to explain the process? I guess I am not too dumb to pay $60K for a vehicle but too dumb to understand the calculations? Thanks!
ognend 04/11/21 06:07pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

If 36# is that important to you.... You need a bigger truck. I don't understand. Why do I need a bigger truck? :)Trust me on this. I genuinely do not understand. What are you trying to say? If you have nothing of consequence to contribute here or you are not willing to state it clearly, why are you wasting everyone's time? Start your own thread? :)
ognend 04/10/21 07:29pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

If 36# is that important to you.... You need a bigger truck. I don't understand. Why do I need a bigger truck? :)
ognend 04/10/21 05:12pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

The Ford number is probably based on the weakest link which may be the tires used, have you checked the ratings on your tires to see if they will support your new cargo capacity? Yes, the tires (and wheels) easily support the weight. Thanks! :)
ognend 04/10/21 09:56am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Ford gives you the max cargo weight on your door sticker. They also give the maximum axle weight ratings on the door sticker. If you want to follow a maximum rating I’d recommend you ignore the maximum cargo capacity number and go by your maximum rear axle weight rating. I believe it is much safer to be heavy on the pin than light. You could be 1000 lbs over on your maximum rear axle rating and the only way you’d ever know it is over weight is by weighing your axle. If you’re too light, the trailer can be very unstable and dangerous. That's exactly what I am doing (I believe). I weighed my truck without trailer with a full tank of diesel. I then subtracted the weight of the rear axle of the truck from the rear axle weight rating. This (in my understanding), gives me the max weight I can put on the rear axle, to get to the rear axle capacity limit. Thanks :)
ognend 04/10/21 04:40am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Read my ENTIRE post again. I am not going to contact Ford without your trucks pertintnent info, and challange them on your behalf. It is YOUR truck, and you have the necessary info, and YOU are the one that wants to use your own numbers... If you want an explanation.... Then Ford is your source for it...... If you just want to use the number you came up with.... It is a free country. Just do it, no need to ask about it here. Ah I see what you are saying. In an ideal world we would have access to Ford engineers to ask them these questions. In the real world, I have a coolant leak for the last 10,000 miles that the Ford dealer cannot find after two visits but is happy to top off the coolant every oil change. I also cannot get Ford to fix my FordPass account so that all my repair/maintenance history is fully unlocked for me to see as an owner. In the real world, I have a sticker with a "magic number" of 2184 lbs (which is SUPER precise for payload, not 2180, not 2190 but 2184!), I also have a RAWR and FAWR even though I am not supposed to be looking at those (why give them to me?). You see, in the real world, you are only interesting to Ford when you ask "how much". Thanks for your insights.
ognend 04/10/21 03:08am Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

So what if your only worry about a new truck was payload. You go to the Ford Dealer and see a 2019 Ford 3500 CC SB Lariat SRW. Payload 3400 lbs. Sitting next to it was a 2019 Ford 3500 CC Long Bed XLT SRW. Payload 3400 lbs. Across the way is a Ram dealer. He’s got a 2020 Ram 3500 CC Long Bed Longhorn. Payload 4150 lbs. Which one do you buy and why? All three are diesels. Does a long bed not make for more weight on the rear axle? I would say that all else equal (meaning same rear axle weight ratings etc.), the short bed would have a higher ACTUAL payload capacity. Correct?
ognend 04/09/21 08:00pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

don't like the number on the door sticker, you just get to pick a new number? Interesting way of dealing with payload capacity. I picked a different number on the sticker - RAWR minus actual weight of rear axle. I feel that number is the right one. What do you think?I "think" that you do not like Fords number, so you are using one that you came up with. Why don't you write a letter to Ford Motor Company with all of the pertintnent info (VIN#) and tell them what you posted here? Tell them why your calculations are better than the ones their engineers came up with. Then post their response. Of course I don't like the number. However, I would also like to understand how they reached the exact 2184lbs payload capacity number (it is not exactly explained in the owner manual) and why they bothered to publish the 6100 RAWR number on the door sticker if the RAWR number has zero relevance. Do you have the explanation for that one? I am not saying this to argue but at the end of the day, if the payload capacity is the single number to look at, why publish the FAWR and RAWR numbers? Thanks!
ognend 04/09/21 07:16pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

don't like the number on the door sticker, you just get to pick a new number? Interesting way of dealing with payload capacity. I picked a different number on the sticker - RAWR minus actual weight of rear axle. I feel that number is the right one. What do you think?
ognend 04/09/21 05:57pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

snip... I already have a set of super springs on it. I was more concerned with the actual numbers. Thanks! Yes, that will level and not squat as much...but the 'numbers' AKA ratings has embedded things for performance of that 'number' I installed the super springs to prevent squat, I understand they do not add payload capacity to the vehicle - I am not trying to turn a 3/4 ton truck into a 1ton truck ;) . I was trying to get more comfortable with the actual payload numbers. One way to look at it is simply the payload capacity as per manufacturer sticker inside driver door - this is 2184lbs on my truck. The other way (as was explained to me) is to weigh the rear axle of the truck and deduct that from RAWR rating of said axle. This gives me the 2820lbs number. I simply chose the latter as it suits me (haha)
ognend 04/09/21 03:47pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

If it were me I wouldn't worry about it. In most cases if you throw a set of bags or timbrens on a 3/4 ton you turn it into a same MY SRW 1 ton from a carrying capacity standpoint (provided the tires are also rated for the additional weight). That would effectively give you the higher applicable 1 ton RAWR to work with. I already have a set of super springs on it. I was more concerned with the actual numbers. Thanks!
ognend 04/09/21 02:53pm Tow Vehicles
RE: Towing capacity vs max cargo weight rating

Quick update on this thread: I finally got around to taking my truck to the scales with a full tank of diesel ('16 F-250 Crew Cab FX4 Powerstroke). Front axle: 4860, rear axle: 3280, total weight, 8140 lbs. My RAWR is 6100lbs so I am going with payload capacity of 2820lbs, even though Ford's sticker in the door says - 2184lbs. My total trailer loaded weight: 9270. Since it is a horse trailer with living quarters, I am going with 30% of the weight being on the hitch - which would be 2780lbs. Hence, I feel like I am not overweight. n fact, I am comfortable with replacing the stock 26gal fuel tank with a 50 gal Titan - which would add 192lbs to the equation. What do y'all think? Thanks!
ognend 04/09/21 11:34am Tow Vehicles
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