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Dave Pete

Wyoming

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Posted: 12/02/14 06:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

9/24/2017 Edit - Due to PhotoBucket's change (or enforcement) of policy regarding third party hosting, earlier photos in this thread are not view-able. Therefore, I'm making this thread available here.

Chapter 10, Galley & Greatroom 1 of 2
Chapter 10, Galley & Greatroom 2 of 2

Part 10. Galley and Greatroom will encompass posts dealing with aspects of the interior not falling specifically under: "Bathroom", "Finishes and Finishing", or the "Night Chamber". Kitchen appliances will be found here, dinette cushions and the like. Other threads in this Resto Mod are...

1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 1. Acquisition & Evaluation
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 2. Dismantling and Salvage
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 3. Structure and New Wood
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 4. Bathroom Remodel
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 5. Propane
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 6. Jacks & Tiedowns
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 7. Finishes & Finishing
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 8. Fresh Water
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 9. Electrical (AC/DC)
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 10. Galley & Greatroom
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 11. Night Chamber
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 12. Waste Water
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 13. Exterior, Skin & Openings
1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 14. Viewer Perceptions

DW and I tore down the interior walls in our home years ago. Just as I was going through a job condition that left our future income in a questionable status, we began the home demo. 1.5 years later and the old garage was a sunken front room, the old living room became a large dining area, the old dining room/entryway became a welcoming foyer and the kitchen was opened wide up! We loved the feel!

Therefore we have chosen to carry the open layout of the greatroom concept to our camper. There will be no interior walls separating the cook from the living room. "One for all and all for one" we always say. While DW puts together a meal fit for a king, I'll be able to stretch out comfortably in the lounge, or take in a little TV. Never again will I have to view an interesting clip on the tube and then try to explain it to DW later, because she missed it while slaving away in another room of the camper.

In a space as tiny as the layout of this camper, one cannot afford to give up ANY space ANY where. Where do you put shoes? A broom? Like a small sail boat, everything must have a place and everything must be in its place. You simply CANNOT bring along extra. You have to have a well thought out packing plan and stick to it. Even a 1/2" gap somewhere can become important. As we will see.

* This post was last edited 09/24/17 04:53am by Dave Pete *   View edit history


Lil' Queeny - 1968 Travel Queen 8' Resto-Mod TC
Tow-Mater - 1964 Roadrunner 15' Canned Ham Resto-Mod (for DD)
Teal Tripper - Mix of old and new (in vision stage for DS)
Fairweather June - 1957 Leisurehome 20' Park Model Resto-Mod
The Po' Boys - Just you wait

Dave Pete

Wyoming

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Posted: 12/03/14 07:33am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The lines are becoming blurred for just what "Resto Mod" category is being worked on. Is it new wood, propane, fresh or waste water or electrical? Or is it simply a refrigerator? Should there be another separate category "Appliances"? Is it just more planning? I chose Galley & Greatroom because the refrigerator cabinet is a central component to the main living area.

My refrigerator compartment originally housed a storage cabinet at the top and an icebox below that, all on top of a 20 lb horizontal propane tank compartment at the bottom resting on the wing. And on the interior side - another storage area between the tank compartment and the living space below the ice box.

Here's the original icebox and the replacement donor fridge, a Hadco 410. Incidentally, if any of you have an owner's manual and/or installation manual for a Hadco 410, I'd sure like a copy - paper, digital, whatever. When I get to the Holiday range, I'll be sharing the document for it.

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Now the donor refrigerator is not overly big, and will fit pretty well. My concern is that should it fail (and I did bench test it and found it to work very well indeed), I'd have to replace it. I'd like such an event to net us a newer, larger, nicer fridge. But what fridge? Of course the new fridge would first of all need to fit through the camper door. And once inside it would need to slide into a cabinet with the right size rough opening width, height and depth!

So way back last summer I took rough measurements of my cabinet spaces and located the largest fridge possible in the RV parts catalog - a Norcold 410. If memory serves correctly, I chose the brand over other popular brands because of the narrower width allowing it to fit through our narrower door opening.

I also downloaded the Norcold 410 installation manual and verified I could indeed install that fridge correctly, considering such things as cabinet dimensions and venting requirements, even going so far as to verify with a Norcold technician that my donor Travel Queen upper roof vent had enough square inches for proper venting.

I wanted the fridge weight as low as possible for center of gravity reasons, but considering ease of access for the end user. The new fridge has top controls, but the donor fridge has controls on the bottom. I didn't want it to be impossible to light the donor fridge, especially as we age, and I have no reason to believe the donor fridge might not last forever! I had only to PLAN for the new expensive fridge - and to build for both possibilities.

I knew I couldn't go too high, as the rounded roof started at some point in reducing cabinet depth. Early on I realized the upper cabinet could remain (yea - more storage), because there wasn't enough depth there anyway. But what was the maximum top for my fridge cabinet in light of the rounded roof line and reduced cabinet depth? I discovered that point was about 3" below the cabinet opening originally used by the icebox.

Measuring down from that height I located the position of the fridge shelf (the bottom of the cabinet opening height) and found that for the new tall fridge (Norcold 410) that height was EXACTLY at the lowest spot it could go and still retain the 24" cabinet depth - right even with the top surface of the wing's 2x2 (that had originally been cut out by Travel Queen for the propane cabinet, but that I am leaving in place for structural needs). Now that was quite a coincidence!

Of course my donor fridge (Hadco 410) was considerably shorter and I had plenty of room below the fridge for whatever: storage, utility runs, etc. But if I have to replace the donor fridge in future with the taller fridge I'll have to cleverly re-route some utilities to accommodate the bigger fridge, because I would lose the "under" and "behind" space immediately!

I'm looking at: a water fill line, a galley grey water drain line, at least two runs of 110V line, several 12V lines, propane lines. Anything going from under the galley cabinet or range or fridge over to the front or right sides of the camper. Tight!

After determining my height and depth constraints I moved on to width. This was an important step as well, because I didn't want the fridge door to not open as fully as possible. I'm uncertain just how the Norcold 410 door opens, but after closely looking over and measuring the Hadco 410 (donor fridge) I discovered I could install it and still get fridge shelves in and out and access the fridge contents acceptably - quite comfortably even.

So with pencil in hand I began to mark up the cabinet face and wing shelf to establish locations and cut lines, keeping in mind that I wanted to save removed pieces of the face for patches such as I did on the wet bath face boards near the bottom.

After a full day of just planning and measuring and considering utility runs and a combination of keeping figures and ideas both in my head and on paper and images of Carebears swirling around in my head I finally determined I had done all the planning I could and started to cut. I couldn't go any further until I was able to receive the visual assistance of actually building something!

The pencil lines here in the next photo represent the position of a half inch walls housing the fridge. The one on the right represents the left hand position (from inside the camper) of where the cabinet wall will be placed for the fridge to slide in against. The two areas on the left represent the right side positions (from inside the camper) of the donor fridge and the possible larger, future fridge. And it is important for proper fridge operation to have the side, bottom and top walls right next to the fridge exterior dimension. That allows the refrigeration process of lower vent/upper vent/convective air flow to take place efficiently.

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This picture shows the inside surface of the donor fridge right side cabinet wall carried forward to the back surface of the cabinet face boards. You see it as a vertical pencil line.

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Here is the original cabinet face, complete with new cut-out pencil marks - but you cannot see the marks in the picture - followed by the cut out opening and removed sections.

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In the next picture you see four openings. The top opening is the original, and retained, upper storage cabinet (with hinged door). The second opening from the top is the space below the upper cabinet that doesn't have the required 24" depth for fridge installation, it will become a map (Atlas size), book, laptop, cookie sheet, griddle, or otherwise similar-sized storage shelf location. Depth will be about 13", the same as the cabinet above it, allowing fridge venting behind. The third opening is for the fridge itself, and the opening at the bottom will be a shoe shelf. No boots, there's not enough height for boots, but when you come in the camper the shoes can go here instead of underfoot at the entry door.

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In the event of a future fridge replacement, the shoe storage will disappear and we'll have to figure out something else in that regard, but for now, DW and I had brainstormed these storage spaces to take advantage of what sizing requirements we were left with, and I think we came up with some grand solutions!

Dave Pete

Wyoming

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Posted: 12/04/14 07:21am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

With the refrigerator cabinet face boards cut to size, I moved on to the upper fridge vent.

The lower fridge vent would result from an appropriate number of louvered holes placed into a new replacement panel for the original propane compartment door, but Lil' Queeny had no fridge to begin with so there was no roof vent.

For those who aren't familiar with the role of these vents here's a simple low-down. The fridge cools by using heat - heat in the form of a little propane flame or a 110V or 12V electric heating element. That heat, in a little chimney on the back of the fridge, results in a refrigerant loop that causes coolant inside the system to draw heat from inside the fridge and dissipate it out the back in some coils. A convective flow of air across these coils draws the heat up and out - it pulls heat out of the inside of the fridge in other words. Of course we all realize that the absence of heat in our universe results in COLD!. But in order for this to work, there has to be a relatively balanced flow of outside air from the lower vent, past the fridge coils, and out the upper vent in the roof or high in the wall. The excess heat from the heating elements or the propane flame also rises up and out through this vent.

With their unique rounded side walls and roof, Travel Queen designed their own refrigerator roof vents that I fondly refer to as the "Travel Queen chimney".

Lil' Queeny didn't have a chimney because she started life with an icebox, but our donor camper had a chimney! And it was in great shape for 45+ years old. No dents or misshapen nature, the result of overhead smacks and wacks from such evil objects as tree branches. When I removed it from the donor camper I gave it a quick look see - and placed it on the shelf. Now I took it down and gave it a closer look.

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I used a scraper and a vice and hammer and a length of flat steel stock and cleaned it up good, straightened the edges and flattened the screw holes.

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Then, evenly balancing it front to back with the visual positioning of the lower vent (rough opening) I marked the roof. From that spot I adjusted it's inboard/outboard position to both fit the roof stringers and the location of the available roof space in the cabinet behind the upper shelf, noting that it also appeared plumb in it's vertical surfaces. After marking the exact location of the necessary roof opening, I drilled a 1/8" hole in the paneling from outside to inside and found the positioning was fine. Then I drilled larger holes in all four corners and used a sabre saw to make the rest of the cut.

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Here's how it aligned and looked from the outside. Note how it's upper height limit is BELOW the highest levels of the roof line. This is an exterior Travel Queen characteristic I really wanted to have. I'm glad I was able to find an original piece and didn't have to use a more modern looking vent.

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I still have to add a couple of 1x2 or 3/4" plywood cleats between the roof stringers before it's complete. I'll do that when I'm working more on the roof.

I removed the vent and put it back on the shelf for later. After I get the camper metal skin back on, I'll drill holes from inside through the metal in the corners of the opening, cut out the rectangle from the outside and install the roof vent like any other exterior fixture.

Then I had breakfast, got my haircut and went to the dentist.

* This post was edited 12/04/14 07:27am by Dave Pete *

Dave Pete

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Posted: 12/06/14 07:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

So work on the galley continues with more changes to the refrigerator cabinet. One of the things we notice after seeing how the interior bathroom wall was part of the roof and rounded sidewall support is that the interior wall of the refrigerator cabinet is ALSO a supporting wall of the rounded roof/sidewall - on the left side of the camper.

Part of the cabinet is made up up the camper's front wall of the truck box, and another overlapped piece for the back wall of the cab-over bed area. And we'll get to that, replacing just part of that plywood.

But here today I'll be talking about the left wall of the fridge cabinet while facing the fridge. Looking down low, where that wall meets the wing, there was enough damage (in two pieces of plywood spliced together) that I needed to replace wood there. Here's a picture of what came out of there, and keep in mind this wall makes up the right side of the original propane door access rough opening. The notch was down and outboard. The angle was cut to make the replacement easier. The two pieces were fastened too each other with corrugated steel fasteners. Notice the splits and rot.

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These next pictures show just the lower board out, before the angle cut and removing the top piece.

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And here is with the upper angled piece removed (cut out).

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These next two show the new replacement board in place but unfastened.

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Early on I marked for, and debated cutting, holes into this board for utility lines and then decided that wasn't smart. This area behind and under the fridge is open to the outside via the access door for the lower vent. Why would I want holes between there and the under galley cabinet, even behind the range? So I just notched the spot for the 2x2 and left utilities holes for later when I determine exactly what and where.

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Here's a shot of test boards spacing out the wall for the left side of the fridge (fairly tight space needed for proper venting across the back side of the fridge). The spacing out is the 3/4" boards, then will be a 1/2" plywood wall, and inside the cavity made by the 3/4" (in essence 1x2s made of plywood) is the propane light run and closer to the exterior wall will be a channel for electrical wiring, etc. up to the left side overhead cabinet. The horizontal board you see is the fridge shelf (which is also the roof of the lowest extra cabinet spot).

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If you look close you'll notice in the above photo, the lower angle cut wall board is wider than the board above it. The camper has used 5/8" plywood covered by 1/8" finish paneling throughout. I'm replacing most of such thicknesses with 3/4" ply. This wall was no exception, except that here to the side of the original icebox, they ran out of paneling and didn't complete the panel on this hidden, inside sheet of 5/8". Well, except up toward the top had it. So I simply used 1/8" shims behind my "studs" for that wall in fastening the lower replacement board to the upper wall. Let's see if I can find some pictures.

Yeah here's some. This will be a bunch of pictures showing the process of not only building out that wall, but building the upper and lower shelves. I found I had to build the upper shelf, then measure down from there and set up the fridge shelf, then just keep at it, however felt right. And keep in mind I had to build the utilities channel, and accommodate design as much as possible for a future wider and taller fridge, and leave the right cabinet wall mostly alone so I could access and replace the front camper wall later. All in all it was quite a challenge.

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That was a lot of pictures. I hope they tell the thousand words I didn't provide. Note that on the back of they fridge shelf I'll be placing a back wall board for the storage area under the fridge (doubling as a utility channel wall below the fridge). If I go to the larger replacement fridge I'll have to remove that storage area and I'll end up with ONLY 3/4" space above the wing surface; no where near enough for drain or water fill lines. Therefore I'll be getting creative with those water runs right from the get go. But we'll talk about those at a later date.

For now, that's the fridge cabinet. It has been built enough for me to realize where things are and how to build more of the basic camper structure, how to run utilities, etc. Now I'll move on to the camper exterior left wall build and the galley cabinet build and see where things take us. [emoticon]

Dave Pete

Wyoming

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Posted: 12/09/14 06:33am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Now we get one of our first looks at the galley cabinet area. Along the left side of the camper, the galley runs between the back-wall and the fridge cabinet.

There was originally - from left to right - some unaccessed space, then two larger drawers and a cutting board below counter space, then a large door below a double sink, then two smaller drawers and finally a stove/oven range.

My modifications will make that unaccessed space accessible, then the six gallon water heater in place of the larger drawers (which will be changed to door fronts for plumbing access), and I will be widening a cutting board (probably longer too) and making it very sturdy for slide out to use either as a cutting board or extra counter space, then the sink and large door as original (interior access to plumbing), then retention of the smaller drawers, and finally the range.

Here you see the galley cabinet face (upside down) with both end cap walls on it. Those end caps are 3/4" boards (that familiar 5/8" plus 1/8" stuff).

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Originally these end cap boards also included 1x2 stringers at the back, and various drawer slides and other pieces built in that did not come out easily as a unit, mostly because it was very flimsy, and not exactly fastened together in the best way. Upon camper dismantling, I also took that cabinet framing apart.

Now I'm feeling like it was simply a cabinet built outside, then brought inside to install, and I found from setting the face in place that the heavy and bulky end caps are not only in the way, but really performing no function that proper cleating couldn't provide.

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So I removed them. I also trimmed, in two spots, the face boards to fit the new sizing of the sub-box board (now 3/4" instead of 1/8").

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We'll be showing a replacement of the discolored and damaged outside corning plastic trim pieces in a future "Finishes and Finishing" post. Suffice to say for now that we'll be changing it out. The above photo gives a pretty good view of it and there are three additional places in the camper.

This next photo shows the left side of the galley area. Note this water heater is an old unit for approximating, but is close in size to our planned replacement unit.

Also in the photo you see the limited amount of space for exterior wall hook-ups. Here's what we faced. There was really only this one spot for the heater (replacing the wider drawers). I wanted ample access behind the under-sink cabinet door and I didn't want to lose any more drawer space. Also, there's not enough space behind the range for wall utilities that are as bulky as plumbing lines. There is also an original city water hole in the siding at the location of the larger square hole (larger of the two non-water heater holes). That hole in the siding needed to be incorporated into the PLACEMENT of the new utilities locations.

Here's the picture.

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And here's the view from the right side.

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I'll talk a little more about these utilities placements in the "Fresh Water" and "Electrical" threads.

Dave Pete

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Posted: 12/12/14 06:38am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Now looking up we come to the range hood and vent.

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But it didn't always look like this. Yesterday I posted in "Structure and New Wood" how I had worked on the exterior framing including the vent and had built from the outside, the replacement rough opening.

I wasn't feeling extremely satisfied with the result. So I came inside and tried to think this through. What I needed to do was install this hood and vent from the inside and make certain the exterior hole was in the right place. That was at least as important as locating it correctly to the hole in the siding!

I had found that the original installer of the whole hood had done a poor job. So after holding components in place and evaluating what needed to be done, I was able to mark the new wood from inside and drill holes in the bottom corners of the rough in cut location. From there I went outside and completed the cut with a saber saw.

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Here you see the results. Notice the new staples through the paneling into the wall framing. That wall framing was over sized in part to lend support throughout this weakened paneling area (which is really stronger than it looks). I cut the bottom of this rectangle; the rest of the cut was all from the original install.

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And from the outside...

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I also found I needed to further cut the original hood notch in the upper wall cabinet face. The hood was not level front to back because of the face board notch. I had to cut 1/4" higher on one side and about 3/16" on the other. Here you see the scratch awl marking for the saw cut (which I only made AFTER the short end cuts). Also note a slight shifting of the hood rearward to attempt a better alignment between the hood and the vent.

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My first cuts were on marks UNDER the shelf (because that was easiest to get a proper location in relation to the shelf). So I made the saber saw cut from underneath with bifocals while balancing weird, in the shadows.... Does that all sound like an excuse? It is. Here's a picture of what happens when you let the saw get away from you because you are in an uncomfortable position. It's a good example of what NOT to do when handling a power tool.

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So I have some repair work to do there.

Here's the rearward moved positioning notch I mentioned, but it is pretty hidden now by the hood and I'll probably do finish caulking over such stuff.

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And with the cut completed...

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Then with the components in place...

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Three more thoughts: color, back-splash and fan/light.

1- We have two stove top and oven doors, one set avocado, the other orange. I think DW called it tomato soup so it's a reddish orange. DW is a green kinda girl and other earth tones. Me too, but (like her) we aren't quite sure avocado is a good color choice for this camper - compared to our other color choices. I think the tomato soup orange would go well with this camper's interior colors although she's not quite sure she likes the orange. So we'll be trying both and deciding later. Of course the vent we only have in green, so we'll have to paint it. Kind of kicking around the Rustoleum Hammered Copper (which isn't high temp) so we'll play with that all in the future.

2- The back-splash will cover the paneling throughout the range area and the damage you see to the paneling now around the vent opening looks worse than it is. I'll probably stabilize the area with primer and seal things up good and install back-splash over an improved underlayment, paying particular attention to the opening in the wall, making certain it is all sealed well from future potential water intrusion.

3- I haven't yet researched much in the fan/light arena, but we'll have one in future, one way or another.

So now I will remove the components and store them on the shelf while I move on with more camper structure! The front wall replacements are next!

ticki2

NH

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Posted: 12/12/14 08:06am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dave Pete wrote:

Now looking up we come to the range hood and vent.


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Sorry wrong picture , I tried to count down , it's the next one.

Looking back to your pictures of the two campers this appears to be the final exterior vent cover . If so it might be why there was water intrusion . Most campers have an additional hood over that vent to prevent water intrusion while traveling . There is also usually a flapper somewhere to prevent cold air coming in when the vent fan is off .

If you are going to modify the hood with a fan and light you may consider replacing the hood with one that incorporates all three features , fan , light and flapper , It would still be period correct as mine has all three .

I had a major leak at the range hood vent because of poor original installation.


'68 Avion C-11
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AnEv942

CA

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Posted: 12/12/14 09:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

tiki2 beat me, I also question that hardware store louvered grill, was that original or period? Find that hard to believe...
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Not seeing how it interfaces with the hood, but I dont see any reason for water simply not blowing in.

The hood has no integral fan or light assembly? Painting the hood not an issue- really doesnt get that hot-generally the built in light/proximity is the greater heat source. A good paint shop can match colors.


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Dave Pete

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Posted: 12/12/14 02:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Good points guys; thanks for the suggestions too. It helps me think about improvement now rather than waiting. There are so many things involved as you know that you kind of subconsciously start prioritizing and some decisions aren't well thought out.

I do believe now is the time to research and upgrade. I am not particularly interested in period correct during modification/upgrade changes. There are certain characteristics we're trying to retain (like the refer chimney unique to Travel Queens) but the vent grill isn't one of them. [emoticon]

I just checked over my TT hood (with fan/light etc.) and it's a Hengs brand. Same width, while taller and deeper, but would fit fine. The important aspect is the vent in the wall. It's huge! Comparatively speaking. Almost 6" wider and up to 2" taller, which would make my "larger than necessary" repair board be a perfect choice! And that would resolve any questionable siding issues around the hole.

I started doing some internet searches for this sort of product. Found lots of parts, but few "whole units". I found a ductless, but I'm pretty sure that means no outside venting and I need (and want) the exterior venting. Any ideas for a product? A number of options to choose from would be advantageous. Any others who have an idea here please speak up.

By the way ticki and AnEv, yes it does appear to be the original provided, based on the two campers and others I've seen. Good points about the water infiltration. But the same louvers are used on lower fridge vent doors - wonder how wet that gets in there?

Here's a picture of how they fit together..

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AnEv942

CA

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Posted: 12/12/14 10:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Interesting-more than visible from the face- still dont see how it doesnt blow thru?-but irrelevant


Ventline is the only brand that comes to mind.
http://ventline.com/range_hoods1?b=1 to see there products-some pdf files with dims,

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