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 > Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

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fulltimin

Home is where we Park It.

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Posted: 01/31/20 09:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Here are a few more pictures of sinks, just to further expand the box.



[image]



[image]



[image]



Depending on the look you're going for, things don't have to be extremely expensive.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

BigRabbitMan

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Posted: 01/31/20 10:47pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fulltimin wrote:

STBRetired wrote:



Header calculators don't seem to work real well at low RPMs as they are mostly intended for high output situations, not daily drivability or max torque at partial throttle. Don't think they work very well with the lower exhaust velocity and lower pulse frequency. I think the factory manifolds would work satisfactorily for what you are trying to accomplish.



Almost all header tests I have seen, usually start on the dyno at about 2500 to 3000 rpm and go up. In my case, totally worthless. Bummer.

You would think in this day and age, with all the technology we have available to us, that it would be easy for a computer to spit out the numbers, and accurately, of what would be a great combination for us low speed guys.

I have used a program called Dyno 2000, that allows me to play with a lot of different combinations, with compression, bore, stroke, valve size, cam settings, cam timing, and so forth.

If I took the the settings I found that "should" work for a low speed engine to a cam grinder, they would probably tell me I an nuts, and tell me to get lost, because I have lost my mind. Could be.

However, changing a cam and lifters would be reasonably cheap, if it didn't work.


FMC coach’s had 440’s in them when built. A friend has added an overdrive unit to his coach and is changing his cam to give him peak torque in the low 2000 rpm area. He has also gone to a smaller carb. More in the 600cfm area rather than smaller. He will also always run under 3000 rpm.


BigRabbitMan
Gas to Diesel Conversion project
76 FMC #1046, Gas Pusher became a Diesel Pusher
Discussion thread on this site
"You're never too old to learn something stupid."


fulltimin

Home is where we Park It.

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Posted: 02/01/20 08:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BigRabbitMan wrote:

fulltimin wrote:

STBRetired wrote:



Header calculators don't seem to work real well at low RPMs as they are mostly intended for high output situations, not daily drivability or max torque at partial throttle. Don't think they work very well with the lower exhaust velocity and lower pulse frequency. I think the factory manifolds would work satisfactorily for what you are trying to accomplish.



Almost all header tests I have seen, usually start on the dyno at about 2500 to 3000 rpm and go up. In my case, totally worthless. Bummer.

You would think in this day and age, with all the technology we have available to us, that it would be easy for a computer to spit out the numbers, and accurately, of what would be a great combination for us low speed guys.

I have used a program called Dyno 2000, that allows me to play with a lot of different combinations, with compression, bore, stroke, valve size, cam settings, cam timing, and so forth.

If I took the the settings I found that "should" work for a low speed engine to a cam grinder, they would probably tell me I an nuts, and tell me to get lost, because I have lost my mind. Could be.

However, changing a cam and lifters would be reasonably cheap, if it didn't work.


FMC coach’s had 440’s in them when built. A friend has added an overdrive unit to his coach and is changing his cam to give him peak torque in the low 2000 rpm area. He has also gone to a smaller carb. More in the 600cfm area rather than smaller. He will also always run under 3000 rpm.



Any chance you could get the specs of that camshaft for me? That would be fantastic info to have.

STBRetired

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Posted: 02/01/20 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Had a thought about the headers. Start looking at the diesel pickup aftermarket stuff. Those are headers designed, usually for max torque, to run in the low RPM ranges. Most diesels max out at what, 2500 - 3000 RPM?? You will most likely not be able to use the headers directly as the flanges would probably not match up, but you could get tube length and diameter data from their specs.

If you rarely ever want to open the secondaries, go with mechanical ones. Then you can adjust the opening point to be wherever you want and put a really stiff return spring on the secondaries so that you absolutely know when you have reached that point. If you are serious about getting the best performance out of the engine, consider finding a dyno shop that does exhaust gas analysis. They can help you get the jetting right on whatever carb you choose. Our dyno guy does that for us, but he's strictly an "engine on a stand" shop, no chassis dyno. Doubt that you would want to pull the engine just for a dyno run. There's a Ford dealer about 30 miles from my house that has a chassis dyno that can handle MDTs and MHs so there are some out there. It seems quite strange that opening the secondaries on your carb just builds heat with no perceptible increase in power. I would think about a rebuild or at least getting it looked at. On my MH (Ford V10) going to WOT and running it at 4500 RPM rather than 3400 RPM brings up the water temp about 10 degrees, but you can definitely feel the additional acceleration, even without a downshift.

Back to the sinks, I really like the look of undermount sinks. It also makes it really easy to wipe things from the counter into the sink and you don't have the caulked seam to worry about (as much). Have you decided on your countertop material? I think that could have an impact on what sink would look best with it.


1999 Newmar MACA 3796 F53 6.8L
2016 Ford Edge Sport
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fulltimin

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Posted: 02/01/20 09:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

STBRetired wrote:

Had a thought about the headers. Start looking at the diesel pickup aftermarket stuff. Those are headers designed, usually for max torque, to run in the low RPM ranges. Most diesels max out at what, 2500 - 3000 RPM?? You will most likely not be able to use the headers directly as the flanges would probably not match up, but you could get tube length and diameter data from their specs.




At first glance, after reading this, I thought, it sounded like a good idea. After thinking about it for a little, it dawned on me that for the most part, just every diesel built for the last 20 years would have a turbo on it, which would render the pipe size and length mostly unusable, as compared to what I have.

Perhaps, I am missing something, but I would think a naturally aspirated engine would be treated differently than one with a turbo.

fulltimin

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Posted: 02/01/20 09:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

STBRetired wrote:



If you rarely ever want to open the secondaries, go with mechanical ones. Then you can adjust the opening point to be wherever you want and put a really stiff return spring on the secondaries so that you absolutely know when you have reached that point.

The secondaries are currently activated by mechanical means, and yes, has a strong spring on it. That's how I know when I hit that point. However, the quadrajet also has a vacuum controlled plate on top of the carb, covering the secondaries, so, even if I open the secondaries, if there is too much vacuum, that plate on top won't open, or not fully. That means, as the engine rpm goes up, vacuum decreases, and then the top plate opens farther. That may be why opening the secondaries didn't make a huge difference.

If you are serious about getting the best performance out of the engine, consider finding a dyno shop that does exhaust gas analysis. They can help you get the jetting right on whatever carb you choose. Our dyno guy does that for us, but he's strictly an "engine on a stand" shop, no chassis dyno. Doubt that you would want to pull the engine just for a dyno run. There's a Ford dealer about 30 miles from my house that has a chassis dyno that can handle MDTs and MHs so there are some out there. It seems quite strange that opening the secondaries on your carb just builds heat with no perceptible increase in power. I would think about a rebuild or at least getting it looked at.

I did find a chassis dyno outfit about 60 miles from me, a couple of years ago, that would be able to fit the motor home in. One thing I did do a couple of years ago was to rebuild the carb, after it sat for a while, because the accelerator pumps were bad. I also replaced vacuum lines, and bypassed some of the emissions junk on there, since we have no emissions inspections on a vehicle of that weight. There was a very noticeable difference in power, but I didn't have the time to continue some tuning that I needed to do, at that time. Hills around here that I used to climb at 35 mph in 2nd gear, I was able to climb at 45, and in 3rd, at a lower rpm. Since then the rebuild happened, and so the fine tuning hasn't happened yet, but it will.

On my MH (Ford V10) going to WOT and running it at 4500 RPM rather than 3400 RPM brings up the water temp about 10 degrees, but you can definitely feel the additional acceleration, even without a downshift.




Once I get this to the point that I can get it inspected and back on the road, I can play around with some of the fine tuning on the carb. Then again, I haven't tried it since I rebuilt the carb, maybe opening the secondaries will make a larger difference. Time will tell.

fulltimin

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Posted: 02/01/20 09:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

STBRetired wrote:


Back to the sinks, I really like the look of undermount sinks. It also makes it really easy to wipe things from the counter into the sink and you don't have the caulked seam to worry about (as much). Have you decided on your countertop material? I think that could have an impact on what sink would look best with it.


I like the look of the counter and sink that are made from Corian, and there is no seam between the counter and sink. However, I don't plan on using that in the moho.

At this point, my plan is to use some of my grandfathers Black Walnut lumber for the counter top. I need to pull that out, cut it, plane it, and make sure it is well sealed before using it there, though.

As far as a sink, we are still discussing what we're going to use. Perhaps something lighter in color to contrast with the black walnut.

On a side note, I have used a lot of lacquer in the past on black walnut. The water based version does not darken the wood at all, and I don't like the looks of it, as such.

The oil based version changes the color darker by several shades, and makes it look very nice, as far as I am concerned. Just a personal preference.

On the other hand, if using Cherry, that will darken by itself over time.

Overall, I want to use some light and dark colors inside.

Bill.Satellite

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Posted: 02/02/20 05:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sounds like a nice stainless drop in sink would make a nice contrast to the wood. They are cheap and look great.


What I post is my 2 cents and nothing more. Please don't read anything into my post that's not there. If you disagree, that's OK.
Can't we all just get along?

Bruce Brown

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Posted: 02/02/20 06:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Do an under mount sink. No seam to catch ****.


There are 24 hours in every day - it all depends on how you choose to use them.
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STBRetired

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Posted: 02/02/20 10:15am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Maple looks really good with walnut. You could build the sink as an undermount and then do the installation as a single unit. At 6 feet long, it wouldn't weigh that much. That would allow the finish to completely cover the joint where the sink meets the counter. Don't forget to seal the bottom side as well. You seem to be pretty diligent about covering all the surfaces and edges so far. I, too, prefer the walnut to be dark. On the sink and counter, I would be tempted to laminate some 11-ply plywood to the surfaces that you cannot see just to add more dimensional stability to the wood. It would also allow you to use thinner slabs of the walnut and maple in your construction so the rare/expensive material would go further.

Make sure you use many coats of lacquer so that it can stand up to the wear and tear. Might want to think about food-safe lacquer and glue as you might be preparing food on the counter. Oil finishes are nice (use cutting board oil) but they tend to show wear faster and can be a lot of work to keep looking nice. I have had good luck using biscuits to edge join big pieces of wood. If yu don't have a biscuit jointer (opportunity for another tool purchase) you can use a table saw to cut slots and make splines for the jointery. Tongue and groove glue-ups have not worked well for me when doing long seams. Tongue always seems to split somewhere along the joint. YMMV.

Yeah, most diesels today have turbos. That would mess up the usability of the header specs. There are probably still some out there without turbos, it will just take more looking. There used to be a non-turbo truck pulling class, but I'm not sure if it still exists.

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