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 > Chassis?Starter Grp 31 AGM. CROWN1 AGM?

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Smitty77

OnDRoad

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Posted: 01/11/18 06:09pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I've been spending a few weeks trying to save my current CAT 8D Maintenance Free Starter Battery, due to an unfortunate few days of drain from Fog Lights being left on. (Pretty sure I have them back, about 5 years of age now, and have been abused by low voltage drops about 4-5 times in that timeframe, due to varying reasons. Going to run with them for this years early short trip, and see how they do...). Note: Very pleased with the performance of this battery, 1500 CCA, and I pretend to add water a few times a year.

As I've been bringing them back, I also started researching replacement options. I want to go to AGM Chassis this time around (Won't go into the reasons why, as it's not relevant in my upcoming question.).

Also thinking of going to X's2 GRP31 AGM Chassis this time around. (Cummins ISL, well supported via X'a 1 8D today.).

I've read here, and many other places, the discussions with varying opinions on both Deep Cycle and Marine Cycle Grp 31 AGM's (Good thread last year on these, as well as a few wet cells tossed in along the way, and GEL too[emoticon]!).

This specially for Starter/Chassis duty, of which I admit, Marine Grp 31's AGM's would probably do an adequate job of supporting. And I'm focusing on the upper tier/quality of batteries. I've kept my research down to Lifeline (Which I'm a happy user of X's 4 L16's for House duty.), Trojan, Fullriver. (Fullriver due to price point, and specific feedback I've received from a few RV'er's that have had good results (So far[emoticon]!) with House Duty Fullriver's.).

-Cost no object, Lifeline GRP31 Starter X's2 (The way I was leaning when i started.)

-A little savings on cost, Trojan Overdrive GRP31 X's 2 (Good spec's, but not much info on usage.)

-A log of cost savings, Fullriver FullThrottle GRP31 X's2 (Also good spec's. But also not as much info on usage.) (If I had had to buy quickly, I'd source a good deal on a 8D AGM Starter, with help from friend's 'Good Guy' (Mean's I buy the next few rounds of beers[emoticon]!) discount.)

I stopped researching once I got a warm feeling that the CAT 8D Maintenance Free Starter battery would support us a bit longer. But, received some private emails from others (Including some buddies in the boating community.), asking me for more input and opinions. (As much as I was asking them too!)

Along these emails, Crown1 AGM batteries came up. Many people I know, have been extremely pleased with the quality of the Crown batterie they're using in House (Boating House too), and also Off Grid Home usage too. From banks of X's2 Wet - all the way up to X's 24 Wet (L16's) in a home in Arizona.

So, now my question. Anyone yet use a Crown AGM (Crown1) battery? House and or Starter, though they're different animals. Anyone every do deep research on Crown AGM's (Which I believe are relatively newer product(?)).

Here is a link to the Crown AGM (I was looking at the CRV31S model):

https://www.crownbattery.com/hubfs/October%201%20rebrand/Crown1/CROWN1%20AGM-Starter%20Batteries.pdf?hsCtaTracking=06b0ddf0-98b6-4584-b652-3b32da12a75f%7C23545736-01c9-48b0-8eaa-7ab253605f2d

Here is a link to the Trojan AGM, Overdrive:

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/OverDriveAGM31_Trojan_Data_Sheets.pdf

And here is a link to the Fullriver Full Throttle AGM starter:

http://www.fullriverbattery.com/product/batteries/FT1100-31

And here is a link to the Lifeline AGM Starter:

http://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-3100t/

And finally! A semi apology for starting another 'battery comparison thread'. But most of the ones I read here, and on other boards, are usually talking House usage, with some dabbling of Marine mixed too... (And notice I did not include the SAM's Club Duracell (Branded) AGM GRP31 (They have both a Marine and Starter/Trucking ones available, and I admit at the most attractive e price of all... But, I usually don't go total 'bargain price' shopping for items I consider rather critical to functionality and safety of the rig. Starting is important[emoticon]! Good chance they'd serve me well for 3-6 years, but I'll pay a bit extra now, for at least the 'perception' of higher quality, and thus hopefully functioning when needed Chassis/Starter batteries.)

Best to all,
Smitty

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 01/11/18 06:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hi Smitty,

Even the least of those batteries may serve you well. I'd add a trik-l-start or amp-l-start to keep them up to snuff.


Regards, Don
Full Time in a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 01/11/18 06:24pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lifeline's claim-to-fame is extremely thick plates and unbelievably high charge acceptance rate...

Do you need this in an engine starting battery? Probably not.

For engine starting, Fullriver, Trojan, and even Optima are adequate. Because they are not required to cycle repeatedly. And an AGM starting battery can endure some cycling a lot better than any flooded starting battery.

So, unlike so many battery points, you have a wide latitude of correct choices.

Lwiddis

El Pueblo Señora la Reina de los Ángeles

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Posted: 01/11/18 06:43pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

“Going to run with them for this years early short trip, and see how they do...).”

Why? Could at least degrade a good outing. Replace now. Go concern free.


2015 Winnebago 2101DS TT & Tahoe LTZ, 300 watts WindyNation solar-parallel & MPPT, Trojan T-125s. TALL flagpole for US flag. Prefer USFS, COE, BLM, NPS, TVA, USF&WS, state & county camps. Bicyclist! 14 year Army vet - 11B40 then 11A - old MOS 1542 & 1560.


landyacht318

Near a large body of salty water

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Posted: 01/11/18 09:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

For maximum CCA, for engine starting, NOrthstar And Odyssey AGM batteries have 1150 CCA each in the group 31 size. 100AH.

I've been deep cycling a Northstar Group27 for over 4 years and over 700 Deep cycles. I would buy the same battery again tomorrow if it failed tomorrow.
It will not fail tomorrow.

Northstar AGM's are relabelled and sold as X2Power at batteries plus, and might have another year added to Northstar's 4 year warranty.

I had crown flooded marine batteries in the distant past, group 27. They were heavier than Wallyworld group 27 marine batteries, and 30% more expensive. I did not really recharge them properly to give a good report on longevity or lack thereof. They used a lot of water starting at about 200 medium depth cycles

No Idea about Crown AGM's
Crown starter group31 is 60.4 LBS and 100AH and 950CCA
Lifeline gpl-31T is 64Lbs and 105Ah 600CCA
Lifeline GPL-31XT is 74Lbs amnd 125AH 650CCA
Northstar group31/Odyssey PC2150 are 75 and 78Lbs 1150CCA 103 and 100 AH



Lifeline are not as high on The CCA as some other AGMS, but thicker plates means more deep cycles. Not sure there is any difference between lifeline starting batteries vs Deep cycle batteries, other than marketing.

NO opinion on the Trojan AGM, I've read nothing about their longevity, good or bad.

If a Lead acid battery is not treated well, meaning it is overdischarged regularly and not fully recharged regularly, the best battery is not going to last much longer, if any, than the cheapest.

The better battery might respond to a hail mary extended 'restoration' charge. Or it might not.

Either one accepts shorter than desirable battery lifespans, or they spend a bit more so they can regularly fully charge the batteries. When one can properly and fully recharge LEad acid, Only then one can get ones money's worth from the more expensive batteries.
In my opinion.

But expecting a top$$ battery to be immune from abusive usage is unwise.

Abuse means overdischarge and not being brought to full charge regularly, and often, after any significant discharge.

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 01/11/18 10:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lifeline's cyclability comes at a premium. About 20% fewer cold cranking amps.
Probably a good perspective comes from the cruising sailboat community -- the Lifelines generally a regarded as rendering almost twice the Lifespan as other leading AGM batteries. A pinpoint objective that costs more and gives less CCA.

But today many engines use a gear reduction starter that requires but 40% of the amperage of a straight coupled starter motor. Nowhere is this more apparent than on my 855 NTC Cummins engine. Decades ago I did handstands to get a 50MT Delco (122 lbs) coupled to the flywheel. Today, a Nippondenso gear reduction starter offers the same torque at 60% of the amperage at half the weight.

Trojan
Fullriver
Deka East Penn
Odyssey

All make good engine starting AGM batteries. Myself, I would not get too shook up if all the names were put into a hat and I had to draw one at random.

Smitty77

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Posted: 01/12/18 11:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Appreciated the input from all. Will research Northstar/X2Power units, I had seen before they had a good warranty on the X2Power's. I've also noted LY's multiple favorable review of his. And researching the Internet, so it must be true, I also read the Fourwheeler battery review, where Northstar/Odyssey came out very close and at the top of Winch and Boombox testing. The Winch test, probably the closest to Starting duty of a Diesel, the Northstar had a large margin higher feet of winching then the next closest Odyssey. These were all with Grp 34 test batteries. I will comment that both Northstar and Odyssey are very proud of the batteries, when you look at they're prices[emoticon]!

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/154-1303-battery-bashing/

I also reflected upon the input from a few here, that Starting duty usage is a lot less strenuous then day after day of higher cycled duty of House support. A valid point, and worth factoring/balancing top potential capability vs costs. (For starting duty, especially when a robust bank of House Battery is just a Battery Boost switch away - is paying 20-40% more money for what may be 'the best' battery - really needed?).

And great timing from when posted this request for input, to an Email from another boating buddy (They're and OK bunch!). He said he'd gone with Lifeline for House duty (He also went with L16's, like I have, X's8 of them in his trawler.), but had gone with two banks of X's2 Grp 31 FullRiver Full Throttle for his two CAT engines. He did say he had another boating buddy, that had bought the SAM's Club Duracell GRP31's AGM's for his Starter duty about two years ago. He's going to check with him to see how they've been treating him. (He's a lobster fishermen, and uses his boat much more frequently then leisure owners, so he thought his input would be relevant.)

And of course, SAM's and Costco (Though Costco never seems to have a many choices for RV'er's as SAM's seems to have.), could have different 'sourced' batteries on any given stores region. And what was the source a year, or two years ago, could for sure be different today. But sure got to like the price[emoticon]!

One last comment, again from this game boating buddies email last night. He said he'd known many boaters that have been supported well with Marine/Dual Purpose Batteries in the Starting Duty usage. He stipulated they were 'dedicated' to Starter, vs combo use Starting/House usage. Suppose that goes back to the input here, that the Starting duty is not all that strenuous. He also suggested I just stay with the 8D, to simplify install, and one less set of cables in the mix. So I suppose I'll poke around some more at the 8D AGM's Starting batteries too...

So I've really found myself at an unusual place - where I have not 'definitive' answer/recommendation to provide[emoticon]! Might just Cut & Paste both Mexicowander and Pianotuna's comments. (The hat draw, and that the least of the group could serve well....).

And I want to confirm it is always my intention/desire, to properly maintain the charge of any battery I own. House and Chassis both... I did over this 5 year period have some help from a few RV repair places, and I did have the wrong size fuse on my Magnum Smart Battery Combiner (25A blew on me a few times, resulting in a drained battery before I caught it. The SBC LED's all indicated everything as OK, and provides no indication that the fuse is blown. Going to the proper 30A has seen to remedy this problem.) (Like the Magnum SBC product, up to 25Amp diversion of power to the Chassis (Or Aux 2, is not a saving a Chassis.) battery. Finally, I also had an Alternator go out, and caught that as we were driving due to both my dash gauge, and Silverleaf... It had drawn the CAT 8D MF down pretty low before it noted it... Generator driving took care of us for the short term until I replaced the Alternator.). Basically just acknowledging that I never purposely abuse the Chassis battery[emoticon]!

I'm pretty sure the CAT 8D MF will be OK for awhile longer... So have more time to reflect on future Chassis replacement.

Thanks to those of you who shared your thoughts, and best to all,
Smitty

landyacht318

Near a large body of salty water

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Posted: 01/12/18 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Your Cat maintenance free starter battery requireed a different charging protocol when deeply discharged.

Mex once told me to bring such a battery to 15v until amps taper to near zero.

I have noticed one maintenance free flooded battery exhibit this behavior more attune to an AGM, where they require 0.0x amps to be held at high voltages when fully recharged.

I've twice had to do this to my neighbors BMW starter battery which is in his trunk. I've also noted it tends to warm up quickly if fed more than 20 amps( about 75AH capacity). I've had to lower the voltage of my meanwell to the absolute bottom to keep amperage below this when first hooked up, then bump it up in stages until it reaches 15 and amps taper to near 0.

This specific maintenance free Battery has been drained to sub 11 volts twice in over 5 years that I know of and I suspect if I had not given it the 15v treatment it would not have made it this long.


When New, well after one deep cycle and a high amp recharge, the ability of my Northstar AGM battery to start my engine quickly was astoundingly quick. It has since lost that turbo cranking grunt, but still maintains over 11 volts when cranking an overnight cold 54f degree engine when 35Ah from full. When 65AH from full it now maintains over 10.2v and the engine still starts easily.

Its cranking ability when deeply discharged basically had me decide I did not even require a dedicated house battery in my current usage patterns. The only change I will make on my next battery is a group 31 instead of a 27.

I could fit 345Ah total of battery capacity, I have been making due with 90.

wa8yxm

Wherever I happen to park

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Posted: 01/12/18 04:46pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Most of the discussions here are about HOUSE batteries.
I have only two things to say about your purposal

An 8d is equal to about two Group 31's in Parallel
(But the G-31's are way easier to wrangle)

And unless you plan on mounting other than "This side up" AGM is wasting money.


Home is where I park it.
Kenwood TS-2000 housed in a 2005 Damon Intruder 377


BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 01/12/18 06:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I have right side up AGM house batteries (transferred from the truck camper) for one of the two house battery banks in the Class C, but in this case it is for mounting them inside the rig where gassing would be a problem with Flooded batts. (Not enough room in outside compartments for all the batts needed)

One advantage of having batts inside (which must be AGMs or else Flooded in a special vented sealed box) is that in winter, they stay warm and do not lose a bunch of AH capacity out in the cold.

This can mean you don't need so many batteries in cold weather. Depends on the math of the scenario whether you come out more even on the money side by being able to get away with fewer AGMs inside where it is warm than with more Floodeds outside in the cold.

I have not got to the point of considering having deep cycle starting batts. My Flooded bank (transferred from the 5er) is getting near the end of its life and the starting batt is an unknown (got this rig in October) so I am reading LY's posts and thinking hmmmm.


1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI

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