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F-650 VS International CV

Plan_B_RV
Explorer
Explorer
Toy hauler GVW (gross vehicle weight) 20K (with 3,200 lbs. on 5th wheel)
Plus payload of at least 15,900 lbs.


In your opinion, which is better truck if you had only this two trucks to choose from to tow 5th wheel:
F-650:
GVW 29K
GCW (gross combined weight) 50K
Payload 19K

International CV: (AKA Silverado HD 6500)
GVW 22.9K
GCW 37.5K
Payload 15.9K

When fully loaded (that might happen from time to time) International will be over GCW by 2200 lbs.

Both trucks diesel, crew cab but International is 4X4 when f-650 is not.

Bonus question: can you think of any other chassis + crew cab truck that is around GVW 23K (payload of 15K or more)

(Ram 5500 payload around 10.5K and F550 is around 11.5K)
Thank you.






56 REPLIES 56

Grit_dog
Nomad III
Nomad III
Plan B RV wrote:
fj12ryder wrote:
I can see there might be some issues with the clearance of the 5th wheel nose and the generator.

And since no one else is asking, I will: What are you planning to do with this setup? Especially 650 lbs. of generator?


Generator is Onan 7000 watt diesel. It's 24 inches wide. So the plan is to install it long ways behind water tank. That will give over 2 feet of clearance for trailer to swing in over chassis. I'm not sure if that's enough. Generator is very economical (at 3500 watt eats 0.5 gallons) and since it wet cooled diesel should last 20000 hours. That's about 7 years of continuous use.

The rig is for boon-docking, my family refuses to conserve water. So sounds like we might have about 600 gallons for 4 people. Hope to last 2 weeks as per BLM 14 day stay rule.


While I've been following this cool "project" planning, I have to ask a couple questions.
You're going to drop an obscene amount of money into this rig to go boondocking with your family who "refuses" to take navy showers?
How "off the grid"can you get with a 60' + long, 30klb + rig on commercial tires?
Not my place to question how others spend their money, because if I won the lottery, you'd see some seriously over the top ____ in my driveway!
But more to consider the roi on a setup like this. And the other practical limitations. Like what do you do with 700 gal of waste water? Pack it in pack it out? It's one thing to dump 20-40 gal if gray water in the weeds next to your campsite. But 600 gal?
Just things to consider. Sounds like your appeasing the wife's need to have a house while camping when you're not even sure if she'll ride in the truck that's going to pull it there!
2016 Ram 2500, MotorOps.ca EFIlive tuned, 5โ€ turbo back, 6" lift on 37s
2017 Heartland Torque T29 - Sold.
Couple of Arctic Fox TCs - Sold

K-9_HANDLER
Explorer
Explorer
Cant add much that hasnt been covered. Tons of options available. I drove medium duty tandems for a specialized carrier made by Ford, Mack, International and Peterbilt in varying conditions from Manhattan to Mountains. On pavement and off. They are a great platform, take your time and take a look at what other manufactures have to offer.
Camping near home at Assateague National Seashore with our wild four legged friends

Plan_B_RV
Explorer
Explorer
That's twice the price of f-650. So only way I can buy Freightliner M2 106 is going to used.

rjstractor
Nomad
Nomad
blt2ski wrote:
Air brakes or hydraulics? If air, you can get factory many times, an air locker for the rear and front, or a mechanical Detroit no spin/locker as I have. Along with air ride suspension as noted, or seats. Although for an off roader, springs may be a better option.
A rwd with a 2 sp maybe better than 4wd.
You may want an 8 or 10 so manual or auto/ manual trans vs say a 6 so 3000 series Allison. Or a 10K motor vs the smaller 6-7 liter motors.
A GOOD sales rep, with most and larger, most are, they will get you with a sales rep from a bed manufacture, figure out what size you need, how it will effect the axle weights, then total weight. How much HP you need for YOUR interstate speed needs, overall low ratio based on tire diam. Torque, gear ratio in axle and transmission, if you need to pull an off road 40-50% grade, you can. OTR setups have a min 15% setup.
It's NOT just about weights! My truck is a city local setup. Highway, with a 175/335 non turbo diesel. Not good. 0-50 or 55mph. It does fine. I can pull a 30+% grade at 30k. Better than my dmax. Freeway, the 300/600 leaves the IHC behind!
ALOT to think about.
Marty



All of this x2. With your very unique needs you should get with a commercial truck specialist who can take your specs and build you a truck that will work for your application.
2017 VW Golf Alltrack
2000 Ford F250 7.3

BigToe
Explorer
Explorer
Plan B RV wrote:
Unfortunately I did not find curb-weight of international on official website. But on some site I saw that's 7K lbs.So International GVW 22.9 minus curb-weight 7K = payload 15.9.


No. Not "7K".
No. Not "GVW".
No. Not "22.9"

If you want Crew Cab, and
If you want an 84" CA, and
If you want 4x4, and
If you want highest GVWR, for the above configuration, where R denotes the RATING, and where GVW without the R is the weight, then...

A strippy International CV Series Crew Cab 84" CA 4x4 cab chassis equipped with axles, suspension, and transmission identical to that of a Chevrolet Silverado 6500HD with the same cab and CA will have a

a minimum curb weight of 8,921 lbs (not 7,000 lbs)
a 22,500 lb GVWR (not 22,900 lbs, and not GVW)

which would leave

a 13,579 lbs. payload capacity (not 15,900 lbs).

But, that is before any a options are added, and it also assumes the shortest AF distance. AF means "Axle to end of Frame", which you can choose. The above weights assume the standard 49". If you were to opt for a longer frame overhang aft of the rear axle, such as the 63" option, then the base curb weight would be 8,953 lbs, leaving a 13,547 lb payload capacity within which all factory options, the bed, the fuel, the hitch, the pin weight, the water, the Onan generator, the passengers, etc must fall within.

If you plan on obtaining a non commercial class A license, why are you considering the CV series?

Why not choose International's MV series instead? I'm not even sure that International will brand the 22,500 4x4 and 22,900 4x2 versions of the CV series. There was talk at one point early on of leaving the 6500 class of CV series chassis exclusive to the Silverado badging, because International customers really needing this kind of capacity would be better served by the MV series chassis anyway.

Not that it matters, if your wife can't live with the MV series cab then you can get the same CV series in the Chevy brand if it turns out that International's grille tops out at the CV 515, equivalent to the 5500HD Silverado. You'll have to see your International dealer for what was finally worked out, but I also heard that ordering may be nearing to a close for the 2019 model year due to the backlog of pent up demand. Something else to see your dealer about.

If you really need 4x4, why not look at the M2-106 by Freightliner. It offers far, far, far better visibility through the windshield, a more sloped nose for forward visibility, an all wheel drive option that comes from and is warranted by Freightliner as the oem, rather than the aftermarket second stage manufacturer set ups that Ford refers to after the fact.

Being a true medium duty, there are hundreds, if not thousands of more choices in equipment options... air suspension, air seats, air cab, air brakes. There are also a several different engine options... the Cummins 6.7, the Cummins L9 (oh baby, talk about power), as well as the Detroit Diesel DD5. Transmission choices are too numerous to discuss, along with rear axles... single speed, two speed, etc.

As far as "big rig" feel, the M2-106 can be had in lo pro configurations with 19.5" tires, and will have an ultimate lower step in height than the F-650 with 19.5s, never mind the 22.5's in the F-650 photo of your original post. This is in part due to the purpose built medium duty cab of the M2-106, which offers more interior height, and is purpose built for the chassis. The CV Series and F-650 essentially plop a pickup cab on top of a straight rail chassis.

Take a few days to look at all the medium duty trucks surrounding you on the byways and in the back of stores. How many F-650's do you see, compared to Freightliners? The M2-106 and 112 literally dominate the medium duty truck market, and have been doing so for years, ever since International fumbled on their Maxxforce engines. The renaming of the Durastar to the MV Series, with few if any changes to the cab, could be a way for International to step foward on a new foot and erase the checkered past.

You might be better served checking out Internationals MV Series, and Freightliner's M2-106 series, including their AWD model, if you really want to carry and haul the kinds of weights you are talking about, and want to have a better selection of chassis equipment to handle the job. Unlike those who would rather avoid the higher insurance costs and higher points burdens of a Class A license, you have a lot more options open to you over and above the two vehicles you initially identified.

blt2ski
Moderator
Moderator
Air brakes or hydraulics? If air, you can get factory many times, an air locker for the rear and front, or a mechanical Detroit no spin/locker as I have. Along with air ride suspension as noted, or seats. Although for an off roader, springs may be a better option.
A rwd with a 2 sp maybe better than 4wd.
You may want an 8 or 10 so manual or auto/ manual trans vs say a 6 so 3000 series Allison. Or a 10K motor vs the smaller 6-7 liter motors.
A GOOD sales rep, with most and larger, most are, they will get you with a sales rep from a bed manufacture, figure out what size you need, how it will effect the axle weights, then total weight. How much HP you need for YOUR interstate speed needs, overall low ratio based on tire diam. Torque, gear ratio in axle and transmission, if you need to pull an off road 40-50% grade, you can. OTR setups have a min 15% setup.
It's NOT just about weights! My truck is a city local setup. Highway, with a 175/335 non turbo diesel. Not good. 0-50 or 55mph. It does fine. I can pull a 30+% grade at 30k. Better than my dmax. Freeway, the 300/600 leaves the IHC behind!
ALOT to think about.
Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

Plan_B_RV
Explorer
Explorer
blt2ski wrote:
Another to think about. Assuming you ARE PUTTING 15000 lbs on truck bed etc. How is
S that weight centered? ALL going on the rear? If so you will find you.have 21000+ on the RA. Max you can do.legally is 20,000. I'm going on the fact mine is just under 6000 empty.
So you may need to have a longer CA bed length, so some of that 15k goes onto.the FA. OR, design in a drop axle just in front of the RA, so on the hwy you are legal, but off road you raise it so it is not in issue driving here. Then get a 22-25K capacity RA to handle this load off road.
Or you may need a 15k FA with.some super singles to carry spread the load forward, removing it off the rear. By putting the.load more forward 've in the rear.
GCWR on larger trucks, may mean for city.driving, vs over the road. Can will it hold 55 on a 1-2% free way grade for local driving. Vs holding 60 mph for over the road interstate setup. This Is based on HP needed to over come how many tires are on the road, aerodynamics of the setup, actual weight, road bed type. Tire design and tread pattern.....
A LOT of things to think about.

Marty

A lot to consider, will work on the numbers. Thanks for heads up.

blt2ski
Moderator
Moderator
Another to think about. Assuming you ARE PUTTING 15000 lbs on truck bed etc. How is
S that weight centered? ALL going on the rear? If so you will find you.have 21000+ on the RA. Max you can do.legally is 20,000. I'm going on the fact mine is just under 6000 empty.
So you may need to have a longer CA bed length, so some of that 15k goes onto.the FA. OR, design in a drop axle just in front of the RA, so on the hwy you are legal, but off road you raise it so it is not in issue driving here. Then get a 22-25K capacity RA to handle this load off road.
Or you may need a 15k FA with.some super singles to carry spread the load forward, removing it off the rear. By putting the.load more forward 've in the rear.
GCWR on larger trucks, may mean for city.driving, vs over the road. Can will it hold 55 on a 1-2% free way grade for local driving. Vs holding 60 mph for over the road interstate setup. This Is based on HP needed to over come how many tires are on the road, aerodynamics of the setup, actual weight, road bed type. Tire design and tread pattern.....
A LOT of things to think about.

Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

Plan_B_RV
Explorer
Explorer
Bedlam wrote:
Plan B RV wrote:
How much clearance do you have from chassis to your trailer. You said 3.5' from ground. But how much is it from chassis to trailer?

I have not measured to the top of the chassis rail, but would guess something under 3' high from the ground - With the flatbed deck on mine, it is at 3.5'. I carry a 6000 lb triple slide truck camper on the back and about 600 lbs of batteries in the lower storage boxes while towing an 8000 lb 20' enclosed trailer that carries an additional 725 lbs of fresh water, 300 lbs of batteries, 150 lbs of gasoline and 100 lbs of propane in addition to our toys.

twodownzero
Explorer
Explorer
Groover wrote:
twodownzero wrote:
I'm confused about the numbers you posted. I'm interested in the GCWR and GVWR, especially the former. 3,200 pounds on the 5th wheel isn't much. This year's pickup trucks are rated to pull your trailer. I also don't think "payload" means what you think it means. Payload = GVWR - GVW.


Wrong, payload is GVWR - empty weight. GVW is actual weight of loaded vehicle.


Payload RATING might be GVWR - empty weight, but the actual payload available is GVWR - GVW.

blt2ski
Moderator
Moderator
You have not said what motors, transmission, axle ratings front and rear, cab style that I can tell! Reality is imho, your wasting people's times. MDTs you don't just walk in and buy a truck like a LDT! Any given model can have one to four plus rear axle ratings, 2 or so front, multiple tire size diam options, which the rear axle ratio is based on. I had one auto, 4 manual transmission options. I have an IDI 7.3, 3 HP/torque options. If I would have looked at the DT466, a couple dozen options from 160-400+HP. Torque into the mid 1500-1600 range.
With that in mind, my ref cab with a 188" wb, 14' flatbed dump is 11,800 empty. No bed was in the mid 8000 lb realm.
So knowing what little I know about MDTs, I would choose none of the above! Until I had more info to work with.
Reality tells me, the IHC will ultimately, be the better one, especially, if you want a 4x4 factory stock. If you don't want a 4x4, ride height step in is a BIGGER factor than you are making it. An IHC lo-pro in rwd, will make it so you have one step in, bed height lower than a cab and chassis 35 series......assuming you go with 19.5 tires.
Also, do not see where you are located, by factory gvwr if in Wa St means squat. Your tonnage is empty weight times 1.5 to next higher ton. My IHC is licensed at 26000, 18,000 gvwr, been pulled over and weighed at 2700", no over weight ticket. As I was under the federal bridge law axle weight limits. Just had to go buy an extra 2000 lbs of gvw from DOL until current license expired 2 months later. Max gcw! Again is based on tire width, axle quantity etc. Those numbers your worried about, mean squat!
You can put bigger heavier ties, springs, drop axle, increase gvw, ihc, won't give a rip!

Marty
92 Navistar dump truck, 7.3L 7 sp, 4.33 gears with a Detroit no spin
2014 Chevy 1500 Dual cab 4x4
92 Red-e-haul 12K equipment trailer

carringb
Explorer
Explorer
BTW - Here's an aftermarket solution for AWD for the F650, without adding ride height:

https://eztracawd.com/ez-trac-product-information/

Factory 4x4 on the International might put the frame rail height out of reach of most 5th wheels. The weird thing is I can't find any actual specs on the 4x4 versions, much less a real picture. All the "pictures" of the 4x4 versions on their website look like renderings... So it makes me skeptical that they represent actual ride height. There's only so much you can do with a solid axle under a straight frame....
2000 Ford E450 V10 VAN! 450,000+ miles
2014 ORV really big trailer
2015 Ford Focus ST

fj12ryder
Explorer II
Explorer II
Plan B RV wrote:
fj12ryder wrote:
I can see there might be some issues with the clearance of the 5th wheel nose and the generator.

And since no one else is asking, I will: What are you planning to do with this setup? Especially 650 lbs. of generator?


Generator is Onan 7000 watt diesel. It's 24 inches wide. So the plan is to install it long ways behind water tank. That will give over 2 feet of clearance for trailer to swing in over chassis. I'm not sure if that's enough. Generator is very economical (at 3500 watt eats 0.5 gallons) and since it wet cooled diesel should last 20000 hours. That's about 7 years of continuous use.

The rig is for boon-docking, my family refuses to conserve water. So sounds like we might have about 600 gallons for 4 people. Hope to last 2 weeks as per BLM 14 day stay rule.
Thanks for the information. I was really pretty curious. Sounds like it should do the trick.
Howard and Peggy

"Don't Panic"

Bedlam
Moderator
Moderator
Plan B RV wrote:
How much clearance do you have from chassis to your trailer. You said 3.5' from ground. But how much is it from chassis to trailer?

I have not measured to the top of the chassis rail, but would guess something under 3' high from the ground - With the flatbed deck on mine, it is at 3.5'. I carry a 6000 lb triple slide truck camper on the back and about 600 lbs of batteries in the lower storage boxes while towing an 8000 lb 20' enclosed trailer that carries an additional 725 lbs of fresh water, 300 lbs of batteries, 150 lbs of gasoline and 100 lbs of propane in addition to our toys.








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