FCA Paid $77 Million in CAFE Penalties in 2016

[ShinerBock]

And people wonder why the cost of vehicles keep going up and why most automakers dropped vehicles with a small footprint. This is one reason why compact pickup trucks went extinct in 2011. I guess this is there way of forcing us to buy the vehicles they want us to buy.

Kind of ironic though. Automakers are not making small fuel efficient cars anymore just to meet CAFE requirements. Yet another regulation that will probably end up doing more harm than good when all things are considered.

Edit: the title says 2016, but it should be 2018.

FCA Paid $77 Million in Civil Penalties to Sell Cars People Actually Want to Buy

[ShinerBock]

Factories in the US also absorb higher labor costs, stricter safety regulation cost, health insurance costs, tighter environmental costs, and so on. Many foreign makes that build their in vehicles in places like Thailand and Argentina to ship elsewhere are protecting their profits since the can build it at a much lower cost than in the US and other places.

[wilber1]

time2roll wrote:

wilber1 wrote:
You do know how tariffs work? The consumer pays the tariff, not the companies.

A bit of both. I have studied economics.

Example: Tesla tax credit drops in half at 1-1-2019. Tesla drops the price of the Model 3 in January. Or is that a coincidence?

Manufacturers might absorb some of it but why would they if the tariff is protecting their profits.

[time2roll]

wilber1 wrote:
You do know how tariffs work? The consumer pays the tariff, not the companies.

A bit of both. I have studied economics.

Example: Tesla tax credit drops in half at 1-1-2019. Tesla drops the price of the Model 3 in January. Or is that a coincidence?

[ShinerBock]

They also pay for CAFE fines like the threads topic.

[wilber1]

time2roll wrote:
Too bad. Comply or business stops. Raise all to 25% to match item with no effect. Just stops all the interrelated political BS such as UAW intervention and lobby support of the politicians. This is about leadership instead of cronyism. Of course that means it will never happen. All of them have an agenda.

Does not matter how many products, industries or vendors. ALL pay same entrance fee. No list of specials, just pay.

They can play games all they want with each other.

You do know how tariffs work? The consumer pays the tariff, not the companies.

[ShinerBock]

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Just look at what the current president is doing to try an even out the trade deficit from China, stop them from stealing our companies tech, allowing our companies to own more than 50% of a company or land in China, and make it easier for a US company to sue a Chinese company just like they can with a US company to name a few. He is being lambasted at home in the press for for doing exactly what you are saying by increasing Chinese tariffs until the play fair with our companies.

It is not just with China either. As I stated earlier, the US had a $566 billion trade deficit in 2017 and I am sure it will be greater in 2018 once the final numbers come in. There are many intricacies involved than most think. My company deals with many Chinese and other foreign manufactures for our "less expensive" product offerings. There is more to it than just tariffs.

[time2roll]

Too bad. Comply or business stops. Raise all to 25% to match item with no effect. Just stops all the interrelated political BS such as UAW intervention and lobby support of the politicians. This is about leadership instead of cronyism. Of course that means it will never happen. All of them have an agenda.

Does not matter how many products, industries or vendors. ALL pay same entrance fee. No list of specials, just pay.

They can play games all they want with each other.

[ShinerBock]

time2roll wrote:

danrclem wrote:

time2roll wrote:
I still say drop everything and set all import taxes at 5%. Including all vehicles, oil, electronics, everything. To me that is free market trade with a small sales tax.

Too much of this tit-for-tat was created long ago under very different conditions. "chicken tax" is just idiotic at this point.

Do you think it's ok for other countries to impose 10% and 25% import taxes on our vehicles and we should only impose a 5% tax on theirs?

If they're willing to set their import taxes at 5% and ours at 5% then that would be fine but I don't think that's going to happen. Tit for tat sounds ok to me if they're not willing to make import taxes equal.

Exactly. All should participate in the 5% as a level playing field. Otherwise adjust ALL import duties to the highest levy made by the other country.
The hunt and pick certain products to retaliate works against both sides IMO.

But what if they only have a 5% tariff on something they buy more of meaning you have a 5% tariff on it, but they put a 25% tariff on something they don't buy from you, but you buy from them? How do you control that among tens of thousands of products over hundreds of industries and countries?

[time2roll]

danrclem wrote:

time2roll wrote:
I still say drop everything and set all import taxes at 5%. Including all vehicles, oil, electronics, everything. To me that is free market trade with a small sales tax.

Too much of this tit-for-tat was created long ago under very different conditions. "chicken tax" is just idiotic at this point.

Do you think it's ok for other countries to impose 10% and 25% import taxes on our vehicles and we should only impose a 5% tax on theirs?

If they're willing to set their import taxes at 5% and ours at 5% then that would be fine but I don't think that's going to happen. Tit for tat sounds ok to me if they're not willing to make import taxes equal.

Exactly. All should participate in the 5% as a level playing field. Otherwise adjust ALL import duties to the highest levy made by the other country.
The hunt and pick certain products to retaliate works against both sides IMO.

[ShinerBock]

wilber1 wrote:


Yes, they do it because the tariff gives American manufactured vehicles a price advantage over imports giving the manufacture higher margins. There is a reason the US industry is ditching cars for trucks and SUV's and the Chicken Tax gives them a 25% incentive to do so. Problem is, the rest of the world will move on to electrics and other technologies and North America will be left behind.

This is false, they are ditching cars due to CAFE regulations(like the threads topic) and lower demand. This was stated by multiple manufactures right after the NHTSA stated that they will be increasing the fines for not meeting CAFE.

What you think is happening and what is factually happening seem to be two different things here. Let the facts change your beliefs, not your beliefs change the facts.

The US will be left out? You do know Tesla's and many other EV's are made in the US were we have been bank rolling their development for the past several years through tax subsidies right?

If the chicken tax "protected" the big three from foreign competition, then why are there so many foreign made SUV's on the market? They are apart of the chicken tax too, but it has not stopped just about every manufacturer from making one. Maybe it has more to do with the manufacturers ability to meet the demands of their buyers rather than the chicken like I have been saying?

[BenK]

If you folks wish to factor in *ALL* of the financial components to any automotive tariff/taxation/fees/etc on trade...you should also add in how countries support their economic structure through taxation of individuals/corporations/etc, credits for some of those taxes, interest rate manipulation (banking industry...both internal and external), bailouts, etc, etc, etc

[danrclem]

time2roll wrote:
I still say drop everything and set all import taxes at 5%. Including all vehicles, oil, electronics, everything. To me that is free market trade with a small sales tax.

Too much of this tit-for-tat was created long ago under very different conditions. "chicken tax" is just idiotic at this point.

Do you think it's ok for other countries to impose 10% and 25% import taxes on our vehicles and we should only impose a 5% tax on theirs?

If they're willing to set their import taxes at 5% and ours at 5% then that would be fine but I don't think that's going to happen. Tit for tat sounds ok to me if they're not willing to make import taxes equal.

[wilber1]

ShinerBock wrote:
Most German and Japanese build here to get around the chicken tax. We have only been talking about pickup trucks, but you forget that federal US regulations define many 4WD SUV's and vans as light trucks which make them apart of the chicken tax. Many of the foreign makes factories here are specifically for their SUV's and vans and may also build a few of their cars as well if demand for their SUV's and vans isn't enough to keep production going.

Also, almost all German and Japanese manufacturers have more factories outside their own country than their own which is mostly due to tariffs, labor costs, and other regulations of each region yet no one talks about the lack of competition or protection in these areas.

Yes, they do it because the tariff gives American manufactured vehicles a price advantage over imports giving the manufacture higher margins. There is a reason the US industry is ditching cars for trucks and SUV's and the Chicken Tax gives them a 25% incentive to do so. Problem is, the rest of the world will move on to electrics and other technologies and North America will be left behind.

[ShinerBock]

That would probably still leave a trade imbalance especially when things have a different values.

Ironically though, even with the chicken tax, the trade deficit is still not in the US's favor with most countries we trade with since we import more into the US than other countries import our products in theirs.

In 2017 we imported $2.895 trillion and only exported $2.329 trillion. That is a $566 billion trade deficit.