National Park and National Forests Bummer

[deadticket8]

I camp in National Forest Campgrounds around my home state and with my senior pass I get 1/2 price camping. To my surprise I got a measely 10% discount in the Everglades campground. Huh? It's under a contractor and they set their own rates. I came back from a day of exploring. Since I took my tiny camper I left items on the picnic table and an orange cone in the pullout as instructed. Got home at supper and my spot was occupied. At the checkin booth were 2 other parties that had the same problem. And try to find these darn websites if you try to reserve a site. Very difficult. Then I went up to Ocala National Forest. To enjoy the developed part of the parks we have to pay. These contractors didn't build them but our senior pass is no good there. Whats next? Anyone else run into this situation?

[deadticket8]

Great responses. And as to us rich seniors, I tent camp and now have an 8' cargo trailer I've made a few improvements to. I love to camp, love to travel and this works on a limited income. My KISS program(keep it simple stupid) allows me to enjoy restaurants and amenities of the area.

[fanrgs]

dewey02 wrote:
Very likely, if the concessionaire program did not exist, or if no concessioners bid on a contract because it wouldn't be profitable to run a business at that campground, then many campgrounds would be closed and not available for our use, because the USFS, BLM, NPS or other agencies simply don't have the staff or resources to keep every campground open.

This is not a recent program. If you research the history of the national parks, you will find that many of the iconic lodges in the most popular parks were not only operated from their construction by private contractors, but built by those companies. The first of those were often railroads and local ranchers.

Just a few examples are Yellowstone, Glacier, and Yosemite. The Yellowstone Park Company was primarily owned by the Northern Pacific Railroad. The Glacier Park Lodge in East Glacier was built and operated by the Great Northern Railroad. And the Ahwahnee Hotel (now named "Majestic Yosemite Hotel") in Yosemite was built and operated by two families who originally lived on ranches in Yosemite Valley.

So, we might not have many facilities in the parks at all if "concessionaires" hadn't popularized them from the late 1800's through the 1920's.

PS--I have a Senior Pass and use it constantly, with absolutely no second thoughts. And I stay in COE campgrounds whenever I am near one because they are the nicest facilities and best prices anywhere. IMHO, they are nicer than any private RV "resort" I have ever stayed in!

[gkainz]

dewey02 - thanks for your insight and information!

[dewey02]

Not questioning the validity of the Senior pass. I have mine and happily use it whenever I can. Just trying to provide info on how the program came about and the realities of the concessionaire program.

Sure, I would like to have everything I want, and a 50% discount everywhere would be great. But I'm glad I get to use the pass where I can, and I understand that everything is not as simple as saying "I want this, so it should be that way."

Very likely, if the concessionaire program did not exist, or if no concessioners bid on a contract because it wouldn't be profitable to run a business at that campground, then many campgrounds would be closed and not available for our use, because the USFS, BLM, NPS or other agencies simply don't have the staff or resources to keep every campground open. Or they may stay open, but at a much reduced service level, with less trash pickup, toilet cleaning, patrol, rule enforcement, etc.

And yet, many concession-run campgrounds do honor the discount when they can afford to do so.

Again, it is easy to say "I want This or that" but there are always trade offs with any decision.

[agesilaus]

I paid taxes for over 40 years, never was on any sort of welfare program, and thus the senior discount is a tiny repayment on that.

[maddog348]

Senior Discount makes sense to me.

JM2¢ ~~ YMMV

[pnichols]

dave54 wrote:
The Senior discount probably made sense at one time.

As I look at the average regulars on this and other RV forums, I wonder if it still does
.
If retired and can afford to RV, we as a group are probably above average income, and could afford to pay the regular fee. Certainly more able to pay the fee than a young struggling family with kids.

However, I did not write the laws. I just use them to my advantage. I have no qualms about using every discount offered me.

Seniors in general ... including all who want to and can work out some way to ... go camping probably on average don't "have as much disposable income day-in day-out" as working folks.

Way back when, as today, I suspect that the senior discount into our public lands was/is a fitting reward from our society to it's seniors. After all, seniors have paid into our tax system longer than the younger folks - so why not some slack being cut for seniors expense-wise when taking advantage of the fruits of those taxes.

It should not be the case that the senior discount doesn't apply if certain concessionaires - who just happen to be contracted to replace government personnel in running certain public campgrounds - aren't contract bound to honor the discounts. The discounts established by some government entity years ago for seniors should still apply regardless of today's contracts.

This is especially the case for us folks who don't need hookups in non-boondock public campgrounds. I for one can use my money resources in plenty of other places other than paying "working folk size" charges for non-hookup, non-boondock, public camping spots.

[dave54]

The Senior discount probably made sense at one time.

As I look at the average regulars on this and other RV forums, I wonder if it still does
.
If retired and can afford to RV, we as a group are probably above average income, and could afford to pay the regular fee. Certainly more able to pay the fee than a young struggling family with kids.

However, I did not write the laws. I just use them to my advantage. I have no qualms about using every discount offered me.

[dewey02]

The answers you seek are complex. You can examine them by searching the legislative history of FLREA (Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act of 2004).

This law was a refinement of the previous Fee Demo Program of 1996, and previous legislative laws and discussions dating back to the Outdoor Recreation Resources Review of the early 1960's.

But the short (and honest) answer to your question is "Yes."
While you may think this situation is "ridiculous" it is what it is. You are free to write to your Congressman to change it.

I just made reservations at a COE campground for this summer. A 70 foot site adjacent to the reservoir with elect.and water hookup was $16 per night. With the Senior pass, I am paying $8 per night. In my opinion it is a huge bargain at either price. Yet, being completely honest with myself, I don't understand how either the agency, or any concessionaire would not be losing money on that facility at even the full price, and losing twice as much at the discount price. Not sure what it costs in elect. to run an RV air conditioner for 24 hours, but probably that alone eats up much of that $8 fee.

[pnichols]

dewey02 wrote:
The Senior Pass gets you a 50% discount at campgrounds run by USFS.
If the site is contracted to a concessionaire, a discount (of any %) is at the discretion of the concessionaire. Many do grant the 50% discount, some grant less, some grant none. .... snip.

I have been aware of this travesty for quiet some time.

This "policy" is so blatantly off-center as to be absurd!! What in the world was the reasoning behind giving seniors a discount, anyway, when the USFS used to run the camping areas? I won't go into what the reason(s) were for establishing this outstanding benefit (I'm all for this discount).

The policy and the reasoning behind offering the discounts being a given ... why ON EARTH don't the concessnaire's contracts still require them to offer this for senior visitors who hold the passes? Do the original reasons for granting these senior pass discounts when visiting our public lands suddenly go away and not have to 100% apply whenever a concessionaire is running them?

Ridiculous ... on several levels.

[maddog348]

Dewey02 ~ Thanks

[agesilaus]

Interesting to hear the voice of someone who actually knows about this situation. I'm sure there is a lot of complexity involved with these issues and anything having to do with the government will be covered with thousands of pages of rules and regulations. Plus politics always enters the situation.

[dewey02]

Lots of mis-information in this thread.
Retired USFS Recreation manager of 3 million acres and about 35 different developed campgrounds, some under contract, some run by USFS.

The Senior Pass gets you a 50% discount at campgrounds run by USFS.
If the site is contracted to a concessionaire, a discount (of any %) is at the discretion of the concessionaire. Many do grant the 50% discount, some grant less, some grant none.

There are specifications in the contract that the concessionaire must do certain maintenance tasks as well as improvements. However, large infrastructure improvements are still the responsibility of the USFS. I've been retired for 10 years. Budgets were tight then, likely tighter now. During the economic downturn (when contracting "shovel-ready" projects was encouraged to generate jobs) we were able to replace all of our vault toilets with new ones. The old ones were built in the 1960's and some had cracked vaults and weren't ADA accessible. And yes, major construction projects that involve excavation require NEPA analysis. Places that are good locations to camp today (flat areas along lakes and streams, for example) were good places to camp a thousand years ago. So it is not unusual that there may be historic artifacts and remnants beneath the ground in those places.

There is no blanket answer to whether a campground is better run by USFS or concessionaires. Each situation is unique. I've had several excellent concessionaires that did far more for a campground than I could have ever done with my limited staff and especially if priorities were placed elsewhere by my supervisors. On the other hand, I've had some concessionaires that I've had to constantly fight with to do their job, and their permits do not get renewed. Unfortunately, some campgrounds don't generate enough revenue to be attractive to good concessionaires, so USFS ends up trying to make them run better.

I do agree that USFS rangers should have more presence in the campgrounds, both those run by USFS and by concessionaires. The public appreciates seeing and talking with rangers, and the rangers need to visit those campgrounds and WALK through (not just drive through) and have personal contact with the campers.

And a word about contracts: It is easy to say "write the contract so they can do this, or they can do that." But it doesn't work that way. There are very specific rules and limitations on what a local Forest can put in those contracts. And just as a matter of actual business (and any private run campground will tell you this), if you require a concessionaire to honor a 50% discount for seniors (which do make up quite a bit of campground traffic, especially in the shoulder seasons) you have just cut their gross income significantly. Therefore, you may not get any contractors to bid, or you will get those that do a less than great job. And again, often the USFS doesn't have the staff to just pick up the slack.

It is very easy to armchair quarterback any issue on the internet. But the reality of the situation is usually far more complex. (Now stepping off soapbox).

[avoidcrowds]

"Park Rangers ran people off for stopping along the road to look at Mt Rushmore"

There are signs along the highway saying it is illegal to stop on the shoulder. It could be that the Park Service is contractually obligated to enforce the policy in that immediate area. It would make sense, since they are patrolling, instead of having State police keep sweeping the area.