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MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Joined: 06/01/2007

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Posted: 05/13/19 03:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The real issue I think is the disappointment is when folks learn that shortened lifespan can be traced to an overly modest charge rate. Their Perfect-Plan goes up in smoke. POOF.

The answer to this is MORE not less AGM batteries. Adding 25% MORE ampacity while restricting discharge percentage will freakin' E-L-I-M-I-N-A-T-E recharging restrictions. 300 amp hours usable instead of 200 available keeps the cycling depth shallower. My massive 24 volt 3400 amphour FLOODED bank drifts seldom lower then 75% for a reason.

Maintaining an AGM minimum at 60% SOC instead of 50% almost eliminates the issue. 65% SOC totally eliminates the issue.

The same is absolutely true with wet batteries and drifting electrolyte density. It **** near eliminates the need for equalization.

I could never afford ten dollars per amp hour and I read things this way

"Pay $200,000.00 extra for our vehicle and enjoy double the fuel mileage"

There is no quandary in my life about comparing what I have to lithium chemistry. So why worry about it? Three dollars an amp hour I can afford.

The purchasing public has been filled with so much battery hogwash for so many years it is difficult near impossible to try and lead them on a different path.

When you see a sign on an engine starting battery FOR ENGINE STARTING PURPOSES ONLY. Not for powering accessories! That will be a benchmark. Battery rules are trendy they are not sharp cut off points. Abuse is a gradual curve.

"Bring the two sections of U239 together. You'll know when critical mass nears" This was the opening speech of my physics teacher. He was unforgiving.

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/13/19 03:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Trojan guide also says use 20% on AGMs

To clarify how that applies, remember that with Wet or AGMs (pretty much the same for this aspect) at a 20% charging rate, you will hit a mid-14s Vabs in the mid-70s percentage of SOC, then amps will taper and you are no longer at 20%

So if you are above say 75% SOC there is no way to do the 20% rate.

Starting at 50%, you do about half the recharge in Bulk and the rest in Absorb. That last half takes a long, long time. How long? "It depends."

If you go to a higher charging rate you hit Vabs at a lower SOC so you would have a shorter Bulk stage and have to be lower in SOC going in to see a Bulk stage at all. EG at 32% rate, you hit Vabs around 65% SOC. That boat guy in his test using 40% on an AGM hit his Vabs at 63%.


1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
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MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Joined: 06/01/2007

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Posted: 05/14/19 10:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ROLLS BATTERY SEZ...

There is a MINIMUM CHARGING RATE

For their conventional wet slosh-slosh cell batteries.

Or risk battery sulfation.

Rolls PDF battery manual

PDF format

Page 12

Bulk Charging

If your argument against AGM batteries is that they have a minimum bulk charge charge requirement. Better read this before you misquote or skew numbers.

When you are "the best" battery manufacturer you can afford to stop slinging BS and tell the truth. Facts that other manufacturers would rather have their shorts pulled down in public rather than have secret specifications exposed.

The only competitor to Rolls is non chinese submarine battery builders like EXIDE in India. The Chinese are buying from THEM.

You don't want to know the price per amp hour. Exide used to build batteries for US WW II submarines.

I hope folks can learn a little and deduce from the Rolls Battery manual.

They warm against over amping in bulk stage. My 10-tons of Rolls Batteries gain max heat soak 9F when saturated voltage charging from 23.80 volts.

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/14/19 10:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

http://rollsbattery.com/public/docs/user_manual/Rolls_Battery_Manual.pdf

This manual does not quite say there is a minimum for Wets, just that low and slow will give more of a chance for sulfation to set in. Might not be the same manual as Mex quotes?

Note the 15v charging voltage for 25C/77F that is above Trojan's 14.8 even. Good luck with your standard RV converter. (A PowerMax LK type adjustable voltage one will do it though.)

I don't understand their idea of "gassing voltage" at 2.25/cell (13.5v ) when the usual story has been at 14.2ish. Then they say to Float at 13.5v! Can't be right.

Smitty77

OnDRoad

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Posted: 05/14/19 10:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MW & BFL13 - You two have probably learned, forgotten, learned again and forgot that you had once forgotten - more then I've been able to absorb over the last 15 years or so on batteries and charging in general. (Intended as a complement!).

Rolls, Trojan - have both been mentioned by you in the last few threads. The OP has Lifeline's (And as you both may recall as you both helped me with my bank - I have Lifeline X's 4 L16's too.

Lifeline seem to provide different guidance on a bank of their batteries can handle as far as higher Amps (Thanks BFL13!), then other AGM's. (I don't know the specific's on the differences between say what Rolls, Trojan, Crown, Etc. state for their AGM's, in comparison to Lifeline's.)

MW - You mentioned adding more battery AH capability, to live off of a higher SOC depletion point overnight. I basically did this, as we usually at about 75% SOC + or - 3 to 5% depending upon overnight heating and or running of fans for cooling. I did this, to try and reduce the volume of DOD Cycles usage.

After I walked my previous bank of the same batteries down. I did mention that a Lifeline Tech did spend a good deal of time trying to help me recover my existing bank. And one of the key things I took away from my conversations with him, and from the input provided to me by you two and others and other forums - was that adding higher AH's during Bulk/Absorb cycles help avoid sulfation build up on the mats.

So with Lifeline having a higher recommended AH's of goosing during those phases then other AGM manufactures - and I'm now doing that with my new bank, is not the higher 'juice' a better way of avoiding sulfate build up. (And as mentioned, I also do periodic Conditioning now too, also at the recommendation of the Tech. Under different time cycles based upon battery usage over the weeks prior.

As I read the info in the last few posts in this thread, I've inferred (Maybe incorrectly?) - that higher 'juice' levels are detrimental to AGM's? (Sure, they have a 'fixed' amount of material on the mats, but I'm not drying these out by ever getting near 'venting' escape levels...).

And OP. Not trying to hijack this thread. You have Lifeline's, smaller size bank and you do seem to push them to the 50% SOC level vs my 75% SOC levels - but specifically for Lifeline's, is why I'm asking the question to these gents to clarify if I've miss understood them[emoticon]!

Best to you all,
Smitty

* This post was edited 05/14/19 04:28pm by Smitty77 *

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Posted: 05/14/19 10:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Smitty, did you mean "amps" when you posted "AH" in your question? Perhaps you could edit that if so, to make the question more understandable. Thanks.

Smitty77

OnDRoad

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Posted: 05/14/19 04:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BFL13 wrote:

Smitty, did you mean "amps" when you posted "AH" in your question? Perhaps you could edit that if so, to make the question more understandable. Thanks.


Corrected, and thanks. And sorry my rambling was not clear - coffee delivery problems today[emoticon]!

Basically wanted to confirm that higher charging rate levels for Lifeline's, is preferable to lower charging rate levels. To avoid sulfation. And that I had interpreted MW's comment about larger battery banks, and living on the upper range of SOC, can pay dividends too...

Best to you, and all,
Smitty

BFL13

Victoria, BC

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Joined: 02/15/2006

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Posted: 05/14/19 05:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Smitty77 wrote:

BFL13 wrote:

Smitty, did you mean "amps" when you posted "AH" in your question? Perhaps you could edit that if so, to make the question more understandable. Thanks.


Corrected, and thanks. And sorry my rambling was not clear - coffee delivery problems today[emoticon]!

Basically wanted to confirm that higher charging rate levels for Lifeline's, is preferable to lower charging rate levels. To avoid sulfation. And that I had interpreted MW's comment about larger battery banks, and living on the upper range of SOC, can pay dividends too...

Best to you, and all,
Smitty


Yes, Lifelines and some/(all?) other AGMs want the higher amps charging 20% or better up to their spec limits (some AGMs specify no higher than 27% EG) when discharged low enough to have a Bulk Stage (below 75% approx. if you use 20%)

However, if you add battery AH to make the bank bigger so you only discharge to 75% and operate in the higher SOC zone above that, you will not be able to do the 20% charging rate.

So it is not possible to do both. Luckily, Mex is clarifying lately that if you do operate in the higher shallow-cycling zone, your batteries will not be harmed as long as you do recharge them to true full (0.5/100AH at 14.4v) every so often. That means you are excused from having to discharge them all the way down to 50% and then do a 20% recharge just to meet that requirement.

I still think it would be a good idea to toss in a deep cycle 20% recharge once in a while even so, but can't back up that claim.

Which is fine until you consider generator running time to recharge from 75-100 SOC, where amps acceptance is low and slow. The idea of operating in the 50-80 zone is to realize the high amps fast charging there with shorter gen running times. That also fits with doing the 20% in Bulk.

Main thing is to first camp how you like and then do what you can with the battery situation. Do a bit of this and a bit of that, but be sure to get them truly full as often as is practical.

Your batteries work for you; you do not work for them. But also:
Look after your batteries and they will look after you!

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