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 > Will GFCI work with items without equipment ground

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Gdetrailer

PA

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Posted: 08/20/19 04:17pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

In truth. The GFCI is NOT there to protect YOU. It is there to protect the circuits. That by doing it's job, it also protects you, is just a bonus


You have that backwards.

A CIRCUIT BREAKER OR FUSE is there to protect THE CIRCUIT (IE WIRING) from overloading which causes HEATING of the wires which eventually leads to failed insulation of the wires which eventually and ultimately leads to FIRE.

GFCI= GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERRUPTER

GFCI is solely there to protect YOUR LIFE, not the electrical circuits.

GFCI do this by monitoring how much current is being drawn off of the HOT (black) wire and comparing the current that is being RETURNED to the power source breaker panel via the NEUTRAL (white) wire.

Things are well as long as the current is the same on BOTH HOT AND NEUTRAL.

Example, if a device plugged in is pulling 1A, there should be 1A on the HOT (Black) AND 1A on the Neutral (White).

IF a device plugged in is pulling 1A on the HOT (black) and the Neutral is measuring .995A that means there is .005A (5 MA) that is not "returning" via the Neutral (white) wire..

That 5 MA HAS to be going via a different route and that typically is YOU...

Your body because it is made up of WATER AND MINERALS makes a fantastic "resistor" and can easily conduct electricity..

Your do not WANT 5 MA of current flowing across your heart, it WILL KILL YOU..

In Tech school many, many yrs ago, we were taught when especially working on HOT chassis equipment to never use both hands, tuck one hand in your pocket.. Lest you become part of the circuit..

So, that is why we have GFCIs..

By the way, GFCIs now days are required to trip at 5 MA, older ones were 10 MA..

time2roll

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Posted: 08/20/19 04:46pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sam Spade wrote:

If the bowl of water it was dropped into is not grounded, then the detector likely wouldn't trip until a persons hand supplied a foreign ground....and maybe not then.
I am trying to figure out how you drop a hot GFCI outlet into a bowl of water and not touch the ground pin of the connector.

However if 5ma leaves the bowl the GFCI will trip.


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Terryallan

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Posted: 08/20/19 06:19pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gdetrailer wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

In truth. The GFCI is NOT there to protect YOU. It is there to protect the circuits. That by doing it's job, it also protects you, is just a bonus


You have that backwards.

A CIRCUIT BREAKER OR FUSE is there to protect THE CIRCUIT (IE WIRING) from overloading which causes HEATING of the wires which eventually leads to failed insulation of the wires which eventually and ultimately leads to FIRE.
.


My point exactly.


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cavie

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Posted: 08/20/19 09:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

In truth. The GFCI is NOT there to protect YOU. It is there to protect the circuits. That by doing it's job, it also protects you, is just a bonus


Wrong. a gfi is in fact designed to protect people not circuits. A circuit breaker is designed to protect wiring. GFI is used on circuits within 6' of a water supply and in a garage to protect people from voltage leakage in power tools.


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opnspaces

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Posted: 08/20/19 10:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

If the bowl of water it was dropped into is not grounded, then the detector likely wouldn't trip until a persons hand supplied a foreign ground....and maybe not then.
I am trying to figure out how you drop a hot GFCI outlet into a bowl of water and not touch the ground pin of the connector.

However if 5ma leaves the bowl the GFCI will trip.


You're not dropping the outlet into the water. You are dropping the two prong corded hair dryer into the bowl of water.


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ktmrfs

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Posted: 08/20/19 11:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

while a GFCI is designed to protect you in the case of getting across hot and neutral it is NOT guaranteed to protect you. If you are well insulated from any ground path (in the house with rubber soled insulated shoes) and get across the hot and neutral ALL the current flows through you via the hot and neutral and none through any ground path. hence no GFCI trip.

Of course this is not the typical fault case but it can exist. As an example try using a outlet tester with a GFCI test button in a typical trailer hooked to a typical generator with unbonded ground and neutral. in most cases it will NOT trip any GFCI outlets. The reason is that the neutral and ground in the trailer are not bonded, nor are they bonded at the generator, and the trailer sits on rubber tires generator sits outside with plastic high insulation resistance between the neutral or ground and earth grounde hence limited or no ground path. same as if you got across hot and neutral in the trailer.

A outlet based GFCI provide NO overcurrent protection just current imbalance protection. It relies on an upstream CB for overecurrent protection, a Circuit breaker GFCI will provide overcurrent protection and current imbalance protection.

Now a GFCI will also detect and trip on one other fault. A downstream ground/neutral bond. By code ground and neutral are not to be connected together anywhere but the main breaker panel. so if ground and neutral are bonded downstream of the GFCI it will detect this short and will trip. This will occur even if there is no current flowing in the circuit.

* This post was edited 08/20/19 11:14pm by ktmrfs *


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JRscooby

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Posted: 08/21/19 05:03am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

In truth. The GFCI is NOT there to protect YOU. It is there to protect the circuits. That by doing it's job, it also protects you, is just a bonus


False. The only reason to have a GFI is to protect people. But still not good to depend on them

wa8yxm

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Posted: 08/21/19 06:03am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Will it work: Perfectly
Does the GFCI care. On some of 'em the safety ground is not even connected.


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mikestock

Vestavia Hills, AL, USA

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Posted: 08/21/19 07:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

All this brings up another related topic. I know I'm wavering.

My RV is in a storage lot where a, low potential, outlet is supplied for each camper. An AC unit or electric water heater will immediately trip the main.

We, pretty much, only plug up to keep batteries charged. Nobody loads anything of consequence on the inverter or 12 volt system.

Every motorhome owner I talk with seems to have a persistent problem with the GFCI's tripping. The only thing we all have in common is that we all have an inverter. Mine is a 1500 watt Xantrex PSW.

Is there something inherent with motorhomes that could cause this? I know the 15 amp connections an campgrounds are GFCI, but I doubt they are used by motorhomes.

Sam Spade

North Central Florida

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Posted: 08/21/19 08:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

In truth. The GFCI is NOT there to protect YOU. It is there to protect the circuits. That by doing it's job, it also protects you, is just a bonus


Absolutely wrong.
Most of the devices don't care where the current goes OUTSIDE the working parts of the device.
Human beings certainly care though.
GFCI is a safety device. Circuit breakers are equipment protection.


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