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agesilaus

North Florida

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Posted: 08/22/19 05:58pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

OK this may come off as a rant. But I was very put off by our brief visit to CdC. We got there mid-afternoon and had time to drive the rim drive and hike a couple trails. Unlike every other National Park that I can think of, there was virtually no signage. Can you recall walking out to a viewpoint in a NP and seeing not one sign telling you what you were looking at? Me neither.

For example the Massacre Cave, hiked out the trail looked down into the canyon...ah where is the cave?? Why is it named Massacre Cave? What happened there. You'll never find out at the turnoff and trail. We did finally hike much further down the trail and finally saw a shallow overhang that might be called a cave, was that it? We'll never know.

The only explanation I can see for this is that the locals are trying to force you to buy one of their expensive tours. Shame on the NPS for going along with this scheme.

A day later we stopped at Hubbell Trading Post, all the rangers were locals. Nothing wrong with that except that they for the most part seemed to know nothing about the displays. I asked a couple of them what the farm equipment displayed did, they had no idea. Looked in the barn, there were a couple of youngish teens in Ranger uniforms lounging about on the hay bales. I had no idea that maybe a 14 or 15 year old could get a job as a uniformed ranger in the NPS.


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Thunder Mountain

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Posted: 08/22/19 06:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Not trying to flame you but Canyon de Chelly is not a National Park. It is a National Monument. Hubbell is a National Historic Site. Although both are administered by the National Park Service neither Monuments or Historic sites do not get the same level of signage and interpretation as National Parks. It is a shame because both of those sites are rich in history. Do yourself and read up on Canyon de Chelly. What Kit Carson, the US Army and our Government did to the Navajo was a travesty. I too was disappointed at the "tour" at Hubbell. If you go back to Canyon de Chelly take one of the Navajo led tours in an old Army duce and a half.

* This post was edited 08/22/19 06:22pm by Thunder Mountain *


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dedmiston

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Posted: 08/22/19 06:24pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Canyon de Chelly is a National Monument, but it's located entirely on Navajo tribal land. Although it's federally protected as a National Monument, it's a tribal territory.

You missed an incredible experience by passing up the tribal jeep tour. In my opinion, this should be a required experience for all Americans. Having a local Navajo guide professionally lead you through the canyon is an invaluable history lesson.

My parents took our family there when I was young and I took my family there once my kids were old enough to appreciate and understand it.

When I was in fourth grade, my teacher (an otherwise great teacher) was lazily reading out of our history text about the great American hero, Kit Carson. I literally jumped out of my seat and told her that none of this was true and asked her if she knew what he did to the Navajo people. She told me to catch my breath and come up front and tell the class what I knew. I repeated what I had learned about The Long Walk. The teacher thanked me for my alternative explanation and used this as a chance to talk to our class about perspective and bias in historical accounts (including my own obvious perspective & bias).

It's a beautiful area with rich history. I wouldn't trust the NPS to post signs to accurately depict the stories. The local guides do this better than any signs could.


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WE-C-USA

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Posted: 08/22/19 06:30pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Canyon de Chelly, is not a National Park.It's a National Monument. Located within the Navajo Nation's Lands. You & I are visitors while there. Everyone works for the Navajo Nation not the NPS.


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azdryheat

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Posted: 08/22/19 06:31pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Besides complaining to us did you also complain to the NPS staff at the park? Did you ask them where the signs are?


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D.E.Bishop

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Posted: 08/22/19 06:59pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Both Hubbell and CdC are totally on Navajo Land as are many sights in AZ, NM and else where in the S/W. Personally I found the Trading Post to be quite a prize and my wife sat and talked with the women in the VC for a couple of hours. I talked with the silversmith that was there the day we visited and it took about a half hour before he began to loosen up and talk to me. I had just read about The Long Walk and the Treaty that Returned the Navajo Ancestral Lands to the Navajo and wanted to learn more about the culture of the people. A very amazing afternoon at Hubbell and with a true Navajo elder who also holds a Doctorate in Sociology.

The bottom of Canyon de Chelly is Sacred Land of The First Nations People and has been designated as such. To them it is as much a church as any structure built by European or African people. The Navajo happen to be the custodians of the land and if you notice that there are no cell towers in Navajo-land nor are there any on the Hopi Reservation. It is not part of their culture and they don't feel the need for our cell and internet systems on the reservations. They do not like nor do they want huge arrays of signs on their Sacred land, but if you approach them politely and with respect, they will teach you many things.

Just remember what the US Army, the 7th Calvary in particular did to them and how they are treated by most non-First Nations People and you will begin to understand why they are the way they are.


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agesilaus

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Posted: 08/22/19 07:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sorry I don't see a big distinction between NP and NM, Crators of the Moon has signs, so does Ft Castillo, Devils Tower, Dinosaur and so does Hovenweep along with just about every other one we've been to. I will say Grand Staircase and Alibiades are both de-signed. Grand Staircase because it just isn't developed at all. And neither was Alibiades when we last looked in there. But they are exceptions.

No I didn't complain to the Rangers, we never saw one. And we were camped in Gallop and the sun was setting...

And none of you really answered my questions. And furthermore I am not in any way interested in a guilt tour over something that happened in the 1800's. I haven't seen any Potato Famine tours or museums for example. Nor a tour over what happened in Magdeburg in 1631. Both of which could of injured my ancestress. Or any of a hundred or thousand other injustices over the past. Get over it and live your life.

Oh and something just came to mind, I recall seeing the official Apache tribe website years ago which bitterly complained about the unjust reputation the peace loving Apaches were given. Don't know if it still is that way but any of you who ever visited the cemetery at Ft Apache might have a contrary view. More revisionisma and whining.

So IMO the Navaho should run CdC the same way they do Monument Valley, as a Navaho concession since they obviously don't want to run it as a benefit to the American Nation.

* This post was edited 08/22/19 07:30pm by agesilaus *

Tyler0215

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Posted: 08/22/19 07:59pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wow You travel and don't want to know the history of the places you visit. By the way it's Gallup,not gallop.

D.E.Bishop

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Posted: 08/22/19 08:39pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

agesilaus wrote:

Sorry I don't see a big distinction between NP and NM, Crators of the Moon has signs, so does Ft Castillo, Devils Tower, Dinosaur and so does Hovenweep along with just about every other one we've been to. I will say Grand Staircase and Alibiades are both de-signed. Grand Staircase because it just isn't developed at all. And neither was Alibiades when we last looked in there. But they are exceptions.

No I didn't complain to the Rangers, we never saw one. And we were camped in Gallop and the sun was setting...

And none of you really answered my questions. And furthermore I am not in any way interested in a guilt tour over something that happened in the 1800's. I haven't seen any Potato Famine tours or museums for example. Nor a tour over what happened in Magdeburg in 1631. Both of which could of injured my ancestress. Or any of a hundred or thousand other injustices over the past. Get over it and live your life.

Oh and something just came to mind, I recall seeing the official Apache tribe website years ago which bitterly complained about the unjust reputation the peace loving Apaches were given. Don't know if it still is that way but any of you who ever visited the cemetery at Ft Apache might have a contrary view. More revisionisma and whining.

So IMO the Navaho should run CdC the same way they do Monument Valley, as a Navaho concession since they obviously don't want to run it as a benefit to the American Nation.


How sad.

azdryheat

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Posted: 08/22/19 08:52pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I've read some first-hand accounts of the Apache in the 1800's. Yes, they were a ruthless, terrible people but remarkable fighters. Reminds me of ISIS and Al-Qaeda of today.

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