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toedtoes

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Posted: 11/13/19 08:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Again, without reading the POA paperwork everything here is an assumption. The POA may only provide a single specific function and may be predicated on a certain action having taken place first. The paperwork will detail that function and certain action. That will tell the OP whether it is prudent to sign it or not.


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toedtoes

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Posted: 11/13/19 08:53am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:


The check is going to be made payable to the seller. It is sent to the buyer so they can exchange it for the RV. When a bank makes a loan for a vehicle they never, ever just give cash or a check payable to the borrower and hope they then complete the transaction.
With enough imagination, it is possible to concoct a wacky scenario were any transaction could be a fraud. Even "meet me at my bank and I will give you cash" could just be a trick to steal your RV when the buyer's accomplice is waiting outside to bop you over the head and steal back the money. In this case, it sure sounds like the OP has investigated it enough to know the transaction is legit and I think they would be walking away from a sale should they resist following the steps the bank is providing.


Many years ago, I was selling a trailer, (Not RV) and a friend was selling another. The buyer met us at a local bank where both sellers had accounts. Buyer had a cashiers check drawn on his bank couple hundred miles away, made out to himself. Banker made some calls to bank, credited my and friend's account, we signed titles, banker notarized, went to lot, hooked trailers to his trucks, had a round of beer. All was good for about 3 weeks, until the banks figured out the buyer had copied the check. My friend went to the Sheriff in buyers home county to make a report, was told it was a civil matter, hire a lawyer and sue. (Might of been a racial issue, I might of had better results) Nearly bankrupted my friend. Was enough outlaw in me to get my trailer back, but bouncing checks still cut me deep.


WRVPO, Not all financing results in a bank written check made out to the seller. My last car loan, they deposited the funds into my account and I took it out in cash to pay the seller.

JRScooby, the "red alarm" on that transaction is that the buyer signed over a check made out to himself to pay your friend. That was NOT the same as cashing a check and then giving you the cash. By signing over the check, the seller basically wrote your friend a check. And it was subject to the same risks that accepting any other check incurs.

As an added note, don't ever let someone cash a check written out to themselves at your bank to give you the cash. If the bank uses your account to "verify" or "ensure" the check, then they can take your account funds if that check bounces. Always make the person cash their check at THEIR bank or at a bank you have no association with (and don't go to the counter with them) - that way you will not be held liable if the check is bad.

The police were right in that it was a civil matter. It was simply a bounced check as far as your friend's interests were concerned. Had the buyer cashed the check at his bank, then gave your friend the cash, then it would have been a criminal act of forgery and the BANK could file a criminal complaint.

JRscooby

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Posted: 11/13/19 10:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

toedtoes wrote:



JRScooby, the "red alarm" on that transaction is that the buyer signed over a check made out to himself to pay your friend. That was NOT the same as cashing a check and then giving you the cash. By signing over the check, the seller basically wrote your friend a check. And it was subject to the same risks that accepting any other check incurs.


Back then we where told a cashiers check, where I would have to give cash to the bank, and take the check was "guaranteed money". And at the time, I assumed the money I had in, and ran thru the bank would mean the bank would do any checks needed for me, like the call to the other bank. The check value was equal to the agreed sale price of both trailers. I also assumed the banker was basically cashing the check/guaranteed money for the buyer, and depositing part of the money in my account, and part in friends. IMHO, it should of been our bank that took recourse about the fraud, but just push some buttons, bank has their money back, we got the shaft.

Quote:

As an added note, don't ever let someone cash a check written out to themselves at your bank to give you the cash. If the bank uses your account to "verify" or "ensure" the check, then they can take your account funds if that check bounces. Always make the person cash their check at THEIR bank or at a bank you have no association with (and don't go to the counter with them) - that way you will not be held liable if the check is bad.


But if I was to pick up cash at another bank, I would need to carry the cash from there to my bank. With the amounts involved, I would need to worry about 2 classes of people, one of which has a legal right to kill me if I tried to prevent them from taking the money. After this I learned I should of gone to the buyers bank, watch the check printed, and carry it to my bank. Or better, a wire transfer.

Quote:

The police were right in that it was a civil matter. It was simply a bounced check as far as your friend's interests were concerned. Had the buyer cashed the check at his bank, then gave your friend the cash, then it would have been a criminal act of forgery and the BANK could file a criminal complaint.


No, while it might of been a legal, but was not right. If friend or I had beat the bank, police would of come for us. Friend is a law abiding man, and never broke even on the deal. The way I did it, I was able to sell a newer trailer, and the trailer bought from me disappeared into the same hole as the money he used to pay for it.

toedtoes

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Posted: 11/13/19 12:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JRscooby wrote:

toedtoes wrote:



JRScooby, the "red alarm" on that transaction is that the buyer signed over a check made out to himself to pay your friend. That was NOT the same as cashing a check and then giving you the cash. By signing over the check, the seller basically wrote your friend a check. And it was subject to the same risks that accepting any other check incurs.


Back then we where told a cashiers check, where I would have to give cash to the bank, and take the check was "guaranteed money". And at the time, I assumed the money I had in, and ran thru the bank would mean the bank would do any checks needed for me, like the call to the other bank. The check value was equal to the agreed sale price of both trailers. I also assumed the banker was basically cashing the check/guaranteed money for the buyer, and depositing part of the money in my account, and part in friends. IMHO, it should of been our bank that took recourse about the fraud, but just push some buttons, bank has their money back, we got the shaft.

Quote:

As an added note, don't ever let someone cash a check written out to themselves at your bank to give you the cash. If the bank uses your account to "verify" or "ensure" the check, then they can take your account funds if that check bounces. Always make the person cash their check at THEIR bank or at a bank you have no association with (and don't go to the counter with them) - that way you will not be held liable if the check is bad.


But if I was to pick up cash at another bank, I would need to carry the cash from there to my bank. With the amounts involved, I would need to worry about 2 classes of people, one of which has a legal right to kill me if I tried to prevent them from taking the money. After this I learned I should of gone to the buyers bank, watch the check printed, and carry it to my bank. Or better, a wire transfer.

Quote:

The police were right in that it was a civil matter. It was simply a bounced check as far as your friend's interests were concerned. Had the buyer cashed the check at his bank, then gave your friend the cash, then it would have been a criminal act of forgery and the BANK could file a criminal complaint.


No, while it might of been a legal, but was not right. If friend or I had beat the bank, police would of come for us. Friend is a law abiding man, and never broke even on the deal. The way I did it, I was able to sell a newer trailer, and the trailer bought from me disappeared into the same hole as the money he used to pay for it.


First, a cashiers check is not "guaranteed" once it leaves the issuing bank. Regardless of anything else.

Second, having money in a bank WILL mean that they will do things like call the other bank, cash the check, etc. That is because your account with them is their protection. If the check is bad, they recoup the loss from you. They will always protect their own loss first.

And having the bank call another does NOT ensure the check is good. All it does is verify that information on the check is real, not that THIS check is real.

Third, your bank will NEVER guarantee a check made on another bank. Whether it's a money order, personal check, or cashier's check. When your bank deposits a check into your account or cashes it, they do so on good faith with the understanding that if the check is bad, they will withdraw that money back out from your account. That's why they sometimes put a hold on the check funds - because they want to make sure you have that money still available if the check bounces.

Fourth, your bank has no legal recourse. You have civil recourse for the failure of payment. The bank named on the check has civil and criminal recourse for forgery. Your bank was just a middle man and has no injury - they didn't lose any money AND they were not crminally victimized.

Fifth, your fear and dislike of the police is a completely separate issue. That you are afraid of "a class of people who have the legal right to kill you if you try to keep them from taking your money" has nothing to do with a reasonable effort to safely make the transaction.

westernrvparkowner

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Posted: 11/13/19 12:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

toedtoes wrote:

JRscooby wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:


The check is going to be made payable to the seller. It is sent to the buyer so they can exchange it for the RV. When a bank makes a loan for a vehicle they never, ever just give cash or a check payable to the borrower and hope they then complete the transaction.
With enough imagination, it is possible to concoct a wacky scenario were any transaction could be a fraud. Even "meet me at my bank and I will give you cash" could just be a trick to steal your RV when the buyer's accomplice is waiting outside to bop you over the head and steal back the money. In this case, it sure sounds like the OP has investigated it enough to know the transaction is legit and I think they would be walking away from a sale should they resist following the steps the bank is providing.


Many years ago, I was selling a trailer, (Not RV) and a friend was selling another. The buyer met us at a local bank where both sellers had accounts. Buyer had a cashiers check drawn on his bank couple hundred miles away, made out to himself. Banker made some calls to bank, credited my and friend's account, we signed titles, banker notarized, went to lot, hooked trailers to his trucks, had a round of beer. All was good for about 3 weeks, until the banks figured out the buyer had copied the check. My friend went to the Sheriff in buyers home county to make a report, was told it was a civil matter, hire a lawyer and sue. (Might of been a racial issue, I might of had better results) Nearly bankrupted my friend. Was enough outlaw in me to get my trailer back, but bouncing checks still cut me deep.


WRVPO, Not all financing results in a bank written check made out to the seller. My last car loan, they deposited the funds into my account and I took it out in cash to pay the seller.
.
Then that transaction was not actually an auto loan where there was to be a lien placed on the auto. It was a personal loan of some type where you used the funds to purchase a vehicle. These transactions happen all the time when the bank doesn't want or doesn't need to perfect a lien. Almost assuredly it was a bank where you have a long standing and good relationship where the security of a lien on the title was unnecessary.

WTP-GC

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Posted: 11/13/19 02:13pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

You can easily do a "conditional power of attorney" or "conditional lien release". The document will include language that more/less states you're giving up your rights in exchange for the payment. The document is invalid without payment being received. We do it all the time.


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JRscooby

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Posted: 11/13/19 03:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

toedtoes wrote:


First, a cashiers check is not "guaranteed" once it leaves the issuing bank. Regardless of anything else.



Yes, I was lied to by bankers several times. But I learned the cashier check was good, if it is good.


Quote:

Second, having money in a bank WILL mean that they will do things like call the other bank, cash the check, etc. That is because your account with them is their protection. If the check is bad, they recoup the loss from you. They will always protect their own loss first.


Yes, the bank will protect themselves. The OP is asking about giving a bank control of his RV without getting money. Bankers are not there to protect me you or him.


Quote:

Third, your bank will NEVER guarantee a check made on another bank. Whether it's a money order, personal check, or cashier's check. When your bank deposits a check into your account or cashes it, they do so on good faith with the understanding that if the check is bad, they will withdraw that money back out from your account. That's why they sometimes put a hold on the check funds - because they want to make sure you have that money still available if the check bounces.


If the bank would of told me there was a hold on the money it would of been much less trouble. I could of made the deposit to another account, that did not get much use, moved money around to my operating account not bounced checks for heavy use tax, fuel, tires, and such. My friend was in bad shape, because selling that trailer gave him extra cash on hand, so he traded trucks.


Quote:

Fourth, your bank has no legal recourse. You have civil recourse for the failure of payment. The bank named on the check has civil and criminal recourse for forgery. Your bank was just a middle man and has no injury - they didn't lose any money AND they were not crminally victimized.


I bet every dollar I have if I had closed all accounts at that bank the day after they took that check, where the money came out of their pocket they would of found a way to go after the one that copied the check. But they got their money, so they had no reason. BTW, as soon as I got it all worked out, paid all their fees, I moved all my business to other banks. Never had more than one account at any one bank.


Quote:

Fifth, your fear and dislike of the police is a completely separate issue. That you are afraid of "a class of people who have the legal right to kill you if you try to keep them from taking your money" has nothing to do with a reasonable effort to safely make the transaction.


Safely do a transaction? anybody that thinks carry cash, especially the amount I sold the trailer for better think about the civil asset forfeit laws Red Cross hired me to spot a trailer load of relief supplies in front of where a hurricane was expected. The plan is run in, drop wagon, and beat feet out of the area. But knowing what I know of plans, I stopped at the bank withdraw enough cash to feed me and my Cat for a few days. On the way back, got stopped for "roadside safety check". While making sure my old Pete was safe to drive they found the cash under my mattress. Now this money is in a bank envelope, with the withdraw slip. Still officer had to have his Sargent look, and the sargent had to make a call before I could take my money and go.
As far as the fear of getting shot? About 45 minutes in my front yard, every couple I tell the officer "I don't want to hurt you, you don't need that gun." 2 other officers show up, he is still fondling the pistol. His Sargent gets there, I had enough. "Damnit! If you put cuffs on me could you keep your hand off that gun?" My crime? I was working on a car in my driveway without ID in pocket. Offered to get it, but will not invite him in my house.

DownTheAvenue

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Posted: 11/13/19 04:09pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am an attorney, and I can tell you a limited power of attorney is a routine process so that a financial institution or even a vehicle dealer can process all the paperwork required for the DMV. There is nothing to be concerned about. The last time you traded a car on a new one I bet you signed the same thing. It is just a document they want to check off their list. The chances are good they will not need it, but if there is an error somewhere with your title and a new document needs to be signed to get a new title and the seller already has his money and is gone, then the lender may find themselves without collateral on the loan.

toedtoes

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Posted: 11/13/19 06:02pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

WTP-GC wrote:

You can easily do a "conditional power of attorney" or "conditional lien release". The document will include language that more/less states you're giving up your rights in exchange for the payment. The document is invalid without payment being received. We do it all the time.


Exactly. And all that will be spelled out in the document.

toedtoes

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Posted: 11/13/19 06:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

westernrvparkowner wrote:

Then that transaction was not actually an auto loan where there was to be a lien placed on the auto. It was a personal loan of some type where you used the funds to purchase a vehicle. These transactions happen all the time when the bank doesn't want or doesn't need to perfect a lien. Almost assuredly it was a bank where you have a long standing and good relationship where the security of a lien on the title was unnecessary.


It was. I had a preapproved loan. I went to the dealership and they wrote up the documentation. I took that to the bank. They then gave me the cash and I went back to the dealership to finalize the transaction.

The bank had the documentation for the lien on the title before giving me the money. Had I reneged and not paid the money to the dealer, then the bank would have gone after me for the money.

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