Good Sam Club Open Roads Forum: Tow Vehicles: Electric vehicles
Open Roads Forum Already a member? Login here.   If not, Register Today!  |  Help

Newest  |  Active  |  Popular  |  RVing FAQ Forum Rules  |  Forum Posting Help and Support  |  Contact  

Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tow Vehicles

Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Electric vehicles

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 3  
Next
DutchmenSport

Indiana

Senior Member

Joined: 10/10/2006

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member


Posted: 11/13/19 06:06am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

this is long, and I put it under "towing" since there is an interest in electric towing vehicles and they may impact our futures.

I've been following the many threads and topics surrounding the subject of electric vehicles. I'm a 100% skeptic that true electric vehicles, especially trucks for towing RV trailers and such, will ever work successfully.

Well, here's a real, true blue situation for a "no vote" from me.

The big hoopla-and-hollar in Indianapolis all Summer has been the building of the "Red line" down town Indianapolis, which is a dedicated lane of traffic for the new IndyGo busses. The new IndyGo busses are all electric.

Well, there's a fly in the ointment now! It turns out, with cold weather (It got down to 5 degrees last night, yes, Nov 13), the batteries won't hold a charge! HA! Millions of dollars spent and now the busses won't hold enough charge to even finish a single run.

Here's a link to the Channel 6 television article: Click here.

But not knowing how long the article will be on-line, the text is below:


IndyGo electric buses having battery problems, can't handle the cold

INDIANAPOLIS — The IndyGo electric buses are already showing signs of trouble as the temperatures plunge. It's a problem Call 6 Investigates first exposed in March, and now it's happening.

Once the temperatures took a dip below 50 degrees, the electric buses began having problems holding a charge.

The city's Red Line system is under pressure to keep its promised schedule of buses showing up on time. It's a challenge as Indy's weather is getting colder.

In the past two weeks, as the thermometer hit 50 degrees and below buses which left the garage fully charged fell victim to the cold.

KEEP UP | IndyGo Red Line Project |

Their 'SOC,' which stands for 'State of Charge,' became too low to complete their route, and they were pulled out of service to be recharged.

The buses are manufactured by China-based 'BYD,' which stands for 'Build Your Dreams.' Other cities have returned BYD buses, and yet IndyGo seemed committed to the bus manufacturer company.

"At the end of the day, we have a contract," Bryan Luellen, IndyGos VP of Public Affairs, said. "They have promised to deliver a solution that will work for our application. If we were to make a decision to send those buses back, that means we would have to stop at Red Line service. And we are committed to providing Red Line service, and the company is committed to holding their part of the deal in the contract."

Call 6 Investigates obtained information which shows at least nine buses unable to keep a full battery charge since November 1, and requiring replacements to take their place on the Red Line:

1971:20%
1976:20%
1988: 16%
1985: 18%
1972: 20%
1976:25%
1984: 20%
1992: 20%
1998:24%
IndyGo says its been aware that this was going to happen.

That's why the bus manufacturer BYD is offering to install two charging stations to help address the problem.

IndyGo says BYD will spend $4 million on that project at no cost to taxpayers.

"So, each time the bus reaches this en-route charging station at the end of the road, it will charge for about ten minutes, and that will basically allow that bus to operate and definitely out there on the road for up to 15 hours, potentially," Luellen said.

By: Rafael Sánchez


IndyGo Red Line.JPG
INDIANAPOLIS — The IndyGo electric buses are already showing signs of trouble as the temperatures plunge. It's a problem Call 6 Investigates first exposed in March, and now it's happening.

Once the temperatures took a dip below 50 degrees, the electric buses began having problems holding a charge.

The city's Red Line system is under pressure to keep its promised schedule of buses showing up on time. It's a challenge as Indy's weather is getting colder.

In the past two weeks, as the thermometer hit 50 degrees and below buses which left the garage fully charged fell victim to the cold.

KEEP UP | IndyGo Red Line Project |

Their 'SOC,' which stands for 'State of Charge,' became too low to complete their route, and they were pulled out of service to be recharged.

The buses are manufactured by China-based 'BYD,' which stands for 'Build Your Dreams.' Other cities have returned BYD buses, and yet IndyGo seemed committed to the bus manufacturer company.


"At the end of the day, we have a contract," Bryan Luellen, IndyGos VP of Public Affairs, said. "They have promised to deliver a solution that will work for our application. If we were to make a decision to send those buses back, that means we would have to stop at Red Line service. And we are committed to providing Red Line service, and the company is committed to holding their part of the deal in the contract."

Call 6 Investigates obtained information which shows at least nine buses unable to keep a full battery charge since November 1, and requiring replacements to take their place on the Red Line:

1971:20%
1976:20%
1988: 16%
1985: 18%
1972: 20%
1976:25%
1984: 20%
1992: 20%
1998:24%
IndyGo says its been aware that this was going to happen.

That's why the bus manufacturer BYD is offering to install two charging stations to help address the problem.

IndyGo says BYD will spend $4 million on that project at no cost to taxpayers.

"So, each time the bus reaches this en-route charging station at the end of the road, it will charge for about ten minutes, and that will basically allow that bus to operate and definitely out there on the road for up to 15 hours, potentially," Luellen said.

RECENT | IndyGo owed thousands due to Red Line fare delays |


The new charging stations are expected to be installed in January, which on average, is the coldest month in Indiana.

"We're not going to pay a discounted price, but each of these buses out there in the marketplace, this is new technology," Luellen said.

"As the technology continues to evolve and we look at placing our next order, we will make some tough calls," Luellen said. "We will have to look at whether we exercise existing options with BYD or whether we go out to bid (and) have another manufacturer provide these vehicles."

Each one of the Red Line buses is $1.2 million.

IndyGo is waiting for the buses to pass federal inspection before paying the bill.

IndyGo submitted the following statement to Call 6:

I’m sure you remember the news from last winter when the cold temperatures began impacting our range testing. Over the winter, we worked with BYD and they have been good partners in providing resolution. In May we announced the resolution: inductive charging on route ( https://www.indygo.net/indygo-finalizes-new-strategy-to-charge-electric-buses/).

Since we knew the inductive charging would take months to manufacture and install, we modified our service delivery strategy. Every bus assigned to the Red Line each day is scheduled for around 200 miles on average. On weekdays, the schedule calls for 8 buses to come back to the garage and recharge.

This Wednesday, an additional 4 buses did come back to the garage for a charge. This happened partially due to weather, but the big change is that on Sunday the 27th, we implemented a new driver schedule. This means operators who had not previously driven the Red Line are now on the route.

Driving these electric vehicles and getting the most range out of them does require a different driving style. The buses are equipped with regenerative technology— what we call “regen.” The regen slows the bus by capturing the energy back from the spinning wheels. Letting the regen provide primary braking force is a key strategy for extending the range. This is a change for operators who are used to driving on diesel buses. Our training and operations team are actively coaching operators on the impact driving style has on vehicle range. Our team are out on the route to help increase efficient driving behavior.

What’s important to note is that we have anticipated these range shortages, and have built processes to protect the transit service. Making sure that a bus arrives every 10 minutes on the Red Line is paramount for our operations team. We have buses at the garage on charge to replace buses that may become depleted. Adopting advanced technology is a learning curve for any organization. We have built buffers into our operating plan.

While the colder weather does pose challenges, we have a strong operating plan.

Groover

Pulaski, TN

Senior Member

Joined: 10/17/2007

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 06:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

That is a rather lengthy rant but it should be noted that all ICE vehicles use a battery to start their engines and are at least as vulnerable to cold weather as a well made electric vehicle. Note that said well made. So far Tesla seems to do rather well in cold weather. In fact, they sell well in Canada and are the best selling vehicle in Norway. The vehicles that you used for your example are Chinese made. Regardless, saying that something will NEVER HAPPEN is a good way to get yourself proven wrong.

MNGeeks61

Minneapolis, MN

Senior Member

Joined: 02/10/2014

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 07:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Ugh...so when the temp drops below FIFTY degrees, they have a problem with SOC? That sounds like a very poorly engineered battery/bus. Or a city that doesn't want to admit it made a mistake.

If an internal combustion engine vehicle had battery issues at 50 degrees, nobody in the Midwest would be able to move in the fall or winter...

fj12ryder

Platte City, MO

Senior Member

Joined: 08/19/2003

View Profile



Posted: 11/13/19 07:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Honestly it's hard to blame the vehicles for the problem. This particular issue is solely the fault of the people who bought the product without doing any kind of serious testing. Anyone who lives where it gets cold knows batteries don't function as well in severely cold temperatures. To buy vehicles without taking this into account is stupidity at it's finest. And now "Let's blame the vehicles for doing exactly as expected". What a bunch of maroons.


Howard and Peggy

"Don't Panic"

BenK

SF BayArea

Senior Member

Joined: 04/18/2002

View Profile



Posted: 11/13/19 07:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

X2 what fj12 and others wrote

Don't blame the vehicles but those who didn't plan the system well

Current battery technology used on ICE's & BEV's today lose capacity the colder it gets


Hybrids the best for now until that is solved. Use the exhaust to heat the batteries at their optimum temperature range


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

BB_TX

McKinney, Texas

Senior Member

Joined: 04/04/2005

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 08:15am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The only thing holding back electric vehicles is a new and significant advancement in battery technology. When, and if, that happens then there will be a rapid advancement in electric vehicles for all uses. Power is not an issue. Battery is.

Johno02

Lexington, TN USA

Senior Member

Joined: 10/15/2004

View Profile



Good Sam RV Club Member

Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 08:28am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Nobody seems to notice that many trains and busses have run on electricity for many years, in a lot of major cities and mainline rail service. And without any batteries at all! If you really want to run all electric transportation, just go back and look at how it was, and is being done. It is called overhead power lines, and it WORKS!


Noel and Betty Johnson (and Harry)
2005 GulfStream Ultra Supreme, 1 Old grouch, 1 wonderful wife, and a grouchy, old, tiny dog


Groover

Pulaski, TN

Senior Member

Joined: 10/17/2007

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 08:29am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If a Chinese made diesel truck performed poorly would we assume that all diesel trucks will also perform poorly?

Chris Bryant

Arden, North Carolina

Senior Member

Joined: 03/26/2003

View Profile



Posted: 11/13/19 09:47am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

That GM 5.7 diesel is junk, so all Diesel engines are junk?

Below 20° here and our built in South Carolina electric busses are doing fine, as are the multitude of Tesla vehicles.


-- Chris Bryant
My RV Service Blog
The RV.net Blog

philh

Belleville MI

Senior Member

Joined: 05/11/2015

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/13/19 10:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Wet acid batteries don't like cold, and are oversized to start an ICE.

Lithium batteries HATE cold. Using energy to keep them warm, especially if plugged in helps a lot.

Driving an electric vehicle requires some driving behavior changes, but people have to be aware it is different.

There's a huge move to electric. Given the current technology, there is not enough raw materials to produce the demand that is being created. Rare earth materials are strip mined in China, which is the biggest source. Limited amounts of material are available elsewhere in the globe. This is the first limiting factor. Second limiting factor, the grid can't sustain much of an increase in electric vehicles. Third factor, an electric vehicle costs more to produce, a lot more. Govt subsidies have masked it until now. That is changing, and customers are voting with their pocket book.

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 3  
Next

Open Roads Forum  >  Tow Vehicles

 > Electric vehicles
Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tow Vehicles


New posts No new posts
Closed, new posts Closed, no new posts
Moved, new posts Moved, no new posts

Adjust text size:

© 2019 CWI, Inc. © 2019 Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All Rights Reserved. | Terms of Use | PRIVACY POLICY | YOUR PRIVACY RIGHTS