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Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 11/17/19 12:35pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lantley wrote:

@ Huntindog
I think where we disagree is calling it theft. Is the football team stealing at the buffet because they eat a lot of food? I'd say they paid the rate and ate all they could.
Campers are doing the same thing. What you are essentially saying is you are not allowed to plug into the 20 amp outlet on the pedestal, because that constitutes theft. You are not basing the theft on how much electric a camper actually uses. You are basing it on camper hooking into the additional 20 amp outlet amp outlet.
If CG's did not want those 20 amp outlets used it would be easy enough to remove them. Although I believe the GFCI maybe code in some places?
The idea of theft is over the top.
I have a 50 amp RV. I can and do use 3 space heaters for heat am I committing theft? Why is it theft when a 30 amp RV'er uses space heaters?
What if a 30 amp RV'er plugs his electric griddle into the 20 amp outlet is that theft?
Maybe it's not space heater detectives we need but 20 amp outlet enforcers that are needed to cut down on this new form of CG thievery


No I do not think the theft word is where we disagree.
Points I think we can all agree on:
Electricity cost money.
How fast one uses it costs money.
The over all amount also costs money.
Someone has to pay for it.

Having set these points out, I will admit that I learned something in this thread.

I always knew that Elec. rates varied wildly from location to location.
But until PT posted his rates, I had no idea it was that cheap anywhere.... In AZ we would consider those rates free. We pay many times more than he does. And I know that AZ doesn't have the highest rates

That may have some bearing on how some view this topic.

Regardless, the principle is the same. If your campground has multiple rates for elec. IE: 30 amp, or 50 amp.... And you pay for 30 amp, then use a method to draw more than that.... It is theft period. Whether it is pennies or dollars makes little difference.
I suspect those that see this as OK may be in a cheap elec area, and everyone is OK with it.
But these RVs have wheels for a reason. Venture out enough, and you may be suprised.




Huntindog
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toedtoes

California

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Posted: 11/17/19 03:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The assumption that you are making is that if you are plugged into a 30amp outlet, you are using that entire 30amps. Therefore if you also plug into the 20amp outlet, you are using more than authorized and "stealing".

But you are not accounting for the actual usage. I may have two heaters but I can't plug them both into my RV outlets because the outlets are all on the same 15amp circuit breaker. So I run one off the 20amp outlet at the pedestal so it doesn't pop my breaker. But my actual electrical use is still under the 30amps that I'm paying for.

Our electrical rates here have a major increase for a peak period. I can run 2X load during non-peak hours and still pay less than running X load during peak hours. So am I stealing if my greater usage cost is less than someone using less during the higher cost period?


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Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 11/17/19 05:51pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

toedtoes wrote:

The assumption that you are making is that if you are plugged into a 30amp outlet, you are using that entire 30amps. Therefore if you also plug into the 20amp outlet, you are using more than authorized and "stealing".

But you are not accounting for the actual usage. I may have two heaters but I can't plug them both into my RV outlets because the outlets are all on the same 15amp circuit breaker. So I run one off the 20amp outlet at the pedestal so it doesn't pop my breaker. But my actual electrical use is still under the 30amps that I'm paying for.

Our electrical rates here have a major increase for a peak period. I can run 2X load during non-peak hours and still pay less than running X load during peak hours. So am I stealing if my greater usage cost is less than someone using less during the higher cost period?
It is pretty much impossible to run two space heaters and stay under 30 amps. Normal TT loads such as the converter will put you over. That is why some here have found that their main breaker pops when they do it... Sooo, They then come up with workarounds.... Which puts them over a 30 amp draw.
The only way you can possibly do it is if one of the space heater has a reduced wattage setting you can use.

Otherwise, you will be over 30 amps
This is just another of lifes inconveinent truths

As for time of day peak charges.... That depends on the campgrounds electric plan. It is probably different than your plan.
I know that in AZ we have several rate plans to choose from.
But yes anytime you draw more than the 30amps you are paying for.... It is theft from the campground. It is a simple concept.. You have a 30 amp rig. Due to its design, it cannot use more than 30 amps without popping a breaker. The campground has every right to expect that you will not be using more than the rig was designed for.... If you run another cord, you are adding potential to draw above what your rig should be capable of. So you should pay for the higher rated service.
Another inconveinient truth.

PS... If you want to try it on your 30 amp main, just plug one of the heaters into your microwave outlet. It has its own breaker, so no cord to the pedastal needed.... And you can then be sure you are under 30 amps.... But I'll bet you lunch you will pop the main breaker.


* This post was edited 11/17/19 06:00pm by Huntindog *

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 11/17/19 07:03pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sophisticated Inverter chargers can be limited to as low as 5 amps. That would allow 2 1500 watt heaters to be run, so long as the fridge is set to propane.


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My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

pianotuna

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Posted: 11/17/19 10:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntingdog,

In Arizona:

The Time of Use plan charges 7.3 cents per kilowatt hour for off-peak summer hours and 24.1 cents per kilowatt hour for on-peak hours during July and August.

8 p.m.-3 p.m. the next day are off peak hours.

7.3 x 19 = $1.376

24.1 x 5 = $1.205

Total for 24 hours =~ $2.58

Where as in Saskatchewan I would pay

14.2 x 24 =~ $3.41

I don't know why you think power is cheaper where I live.

The above numbers don't include taxes or delivery charges of which Saskatchewan has LOTS.

* This post was edited 11/18/19 06:37am by pianotuna *

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 11/18/19 12:39am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Sophisticated Inverter chargers can be limited to as low as 5 amps. That would allow 2 1500 watt heaters to be run, so long as the fridge is set to propane.
What PT has done to his RVs electrical system is nothing short of amazing....My hat is off to him for what he has achieved in being able to manage his loads.

Unfortunantly, that doesn't mean that other RVers are able to do the same.


* This post was edited 11/18/19 01:43am by Huntindog *

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 11/18/19 01:27am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Huntingdog,

In Arizona:

The Time of Use plan charges 7.3 cents per kilowatt hour for off-peak summer hours and 24.1 cents per kilowatt hour for on-peak hours during July and August.

8 p.m.-3 p.m. the next day are off peak hours.

7.3 x 19 = $1.376

24.1 x 5 = $1.205

Total for 24 hours =~ $2.58

Where as in Saskatchewan I would pay

.142 x 24 =~ $3.41

I don't know why you think power is cheaper where I live.

The above numbers don't include taxes or delivery charges of which Saskatchewan has LOTS.
I think your decimal points are wrong.
7.3 is more than .142 where I learned math.
24.1 is a lot more than .142

Please recheck and confirm.


* This post was edited 11/18/19 01:39am by Huntindog *

LarryJM

NoVa

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Posted: 11/18/19 03:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I see some mentioning the GFCI 20A ckt generally found on most pedestals if used in addition to the 30A ckt as being "cheating or using more than one has paid for". My take is that that ckt is included in one's electrical charge and using it in addition to say the main 30A ckt is NOT CHEATING or STEALING. The only way IMO to CHEAT OR STEAL is if one uses a 50A service when one has only paid for a 30A site when the costs are different between 30 and 50A sites and of course say running an additional power cord to another sites pedestal that you have not paid for.

Personally, I always ask for a 50A site and use my dual 30A to 50A dogbone to power my two 30A shore power cords to my trailer which gives me 60A of available power.

Larry


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austinjenna

Columbus, Ohio

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Posted: 11/18/19 04:49am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I run 2 electric heaters and we dont camp when its below freezing much. I just run a heavy gauge cord out the slide to the pedestal and plug in there and can keep that one on high and also have another I just plug on the inside if needed.



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pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 11/18/19 06:36am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntingdog,

I pay 14.2xxx cents per kwh. You are right about the decimal place--thanks for catching that. mea culpa.

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