cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Non-renewable Lithium...Fact.

3_tons
Explorer
Explorer
Since EV’s are on the rise (no magic - thanks only to the invention of the high density Lithium battery), and knowing that Lithium is a limited non-renewable resource, besides wishful thinking, I wonder where this trend will eventually lead??...Surely use of Li will only increase exponentially...
34 REPLIES 34

Reisender
Nomad
Nomad
JRscooby wrote:
markchengr wrote:
I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.


As far as that goes we already have, and have had for decades, the ability to change tractors under a trailer in less time than it can take to fill the tank on the tractor. This might reduce the demand for interchangeable batteries on large trucks.
Then we have seen posts where some do not want to exchange propane tank because they might get a older one. Do you think they will swap batteries?
I don't know how a quick charger works. I know, if you hook a mostly discharged 12V battery to a fully charged 12V battery with heavy cables it does not take long before both batteries have the same voltage? I think in theory, if the fully charged battery had a extra cell, so normal discharge voltage was higher than the charged voltage of the other, and say 50% more capacity, how long would it take to charge a battery? Of course, once the charging battery had done it's job it would take a while to recharge it.


It may happen for large trucks but not for cars. What would be the point. The average stop for a Tesla model 3?at a V3 Supercharger is already down to 15 minutes. Next version will probably be under 10.

JRscooby
Explorer II
Explorer II
markchengr wrote:
I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.


As far as that goes we already have, and have had for decades, the ability to change tractors under a trailer in less time than it can take to fill the tank on the tractor. This might reduce the demand for interchangeable batteries on large trucks.
Then we have seen posts where some do not want to exchange propane tank because they might get a older one. Do you think they will swap batteries?
I don't know how a quick charger works. I know, if you hook a mostly discharged 12V battery to a fully charged 12V battery with heavy cables it does not take long before both batteries have the same voltage? I think in theory, if the fully charged battery had a extra cell, so normal discharge voltage was higher than the charged voltage of the other, and say 50% more capacity, how long would it take to charge a battery? Of course, once the charging battery had done it's job it would take a while to recharge it.

markchengr
Explorer
Explorer
I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.

JRscooby
Explorer II
Explorer II
MrWizard wrote:
Soda pop companies and beer bottlers,did that for many years, until alu cans and plastic bottles were introduced
My question who invented these throw away options, the bottlers, or the alu and plastic industries, seeking to grow their markets, somebody convinced the bottlers it was less costly to buy new alu and plastic containers, than washing the glass bottles, every truck going out for delivery, brought back empties to the warehouse


Yes, we and industry can easily change to waste more energy and material. Could we, with more education, or a different value set, make changes the other way?
Of course some other part of the world, not USA, will need to take the lead on this.

doughere
Explorer
Explorer
pianotuna wrote:
2oldman our sun may last another 5 billion years. After that--it's curtains.


That's why its a good idea to always keep your batteries fully charged.

Doug

atreis
Explorer
Explorer
Reisender wrote:
Nope. Used EV batteries are already in high demand. Expected real world lifespan of the cells is 30 years. Never make assumptions on todays technology. In three years it will be a different game.

PS. I'm one of those who trade in their vehicle every 5 or 6 years. (I like tech) Whoever gets my EV next spring will have an amazing problem free EV with probably at least another decade of life...if not more. We have a bunch of neighbours who have already called dibs.


In cars, the useful life of LiFePO4 batteries is about 10 years. After that they still have lots of life, but capacity and maximum rate of discharge decrease to the point where they're no longer effective in a car. So the person getting your car has 5 years, not 10, before they'll need to do something (unless either they or you don't drive much). At that point they're good as backup storage for solar/wind on the grid, where capacity vs. weight and volume isn't as much of an issue and discharge can be spread out over many banks, where they can be used for another 15-20 years.

After that (25 to 30 years old), most will be spent and they need to be disposed of somehow. Hopefully by then there's a cost-effective way to recover the metals from them for re-use. Right now there are ways but they're not cost effective.
2021 Four Winds 26B on Chevy 4500

MrWizard
Moderator
Moderator
Soda pop companies and beer bottlers,did that for many years, until alu cans and plastic bottles were introduced
My question who invented these throw away options, the bottlers, or the alu and plastic industries, seeking to grow their markets, somebody convinced the bottlers it was less costly to buy new alu and plastic containers, than washing the glass bottles, every truck going out for delivery, brought back empties to the warehouse
I can explain it to you.
But I Can Not understand it for you !

....

Connected using T-Mobile Home internet and Visible Phone service
1997 F53 Bounder 36s

JRscooby
Explorer II
Explorer II
profdant139 wrote:
Actually, Gary, this thread actually illustrates the value of dialogue. I am a pro-EV person -- we are considering getting an EV car for DW, who does not need much range. And yes, we have solar panels on our roof at home.

But I had never stopped to think about the finite nature of lithium, until the OP posted a question. And then I did a little googling and found that yes, although lithium is plentiful in the short run, there are long term concerns.



This has always amazed me; Nobody that has looked at pictures sent back from space should think of anything as limitless. But the goal of the masters of the universe is to keep the economy growing (growth requires consumption or resources) forever.

So I discovered something by actually listening to someone with whom I might disagree. This is a good thing.


To often when facing somebody we might disagree with we spend our time thinking about what we are going to say, instead of listening to what is being said.
It is not possible to change somebody else's mind unless you are willing to change yours.


Gdetrailer wrote:
While it IS "possible" to "recycle" (as in fully break down a Lith battery to the basic components and purity) the problem is to do so IS prohibitively EXPENSIVE to do so.

To break down all of the components to their purest form that is required takes considerable amount of more energy than just digging up new raw material and processing it to a ready usable product.


The same thing can be said for simple things like glass. We could save a lot of energy if instead of crushing the glass we would just clean and reuse the jar. And by standardizing size and shape, where the cleaned bottle could go to any bottler that needed, we could save more. Why does every brand of ketchup need to have it's own bottle shape?

CFerguson
Explorer
Explorer
JRscooby wrote:
CFerguson wrote:
In 1970, I read a paper that 'proved' that we would run out of lead by 1982. I cut out the article to remind me to fact check it when the time rolled around. And dang if we STILL haven't run out of lead. or peak oil. or a hundred other things that went full chicken little.

Commodities are subject to Capitalism (til gov gets involved in stealing from all parties, of course) and thus will never run out. Youll only have to pay more and more as the supply declines. Eventually some bright bulb will figure out a way to recycle it or find a cheaper substitute. Or an entire new tech will come along and obsolete the entire thing anyway.

Don't sweat it.


But if nobody had pointed out the issue, started the development of recycling, would we have the lead we need? (And some of the technology used in recycling is used in the mines to protect the miners and people living in the area)
As for "Capitalism will save us"; We have proven, to the capitalist at least, that without pushback from strong labor unions, or government regulation, capitalism will save everything for fewer and fewer people.


Did you bother to read my entire post? If recycling was the solution as you said then it proves my point. Looks like that flew completely over your head.

magicbus
Explorer
Explorer
2oldman wrote:
Li is one of the most abundant resources, but everything has its limits...except sunshine.
well...

“Inside the sun, a churning fusion engine fuels the star, and it still has a lot of fuel left — about 5 billion years' worth.”

But I guess we do have some time. :B

Dsve
Current: 2018 Winnebago Era A
Previous: Selene 49 Trawler
Previous: Country Coach Allure 36

Reisender
Nomad
Nomad
Gdetrailer wrote:
garyemunson wrote:
This entire thread should be deleted as it is based on the right wing talking point of "EVs bad!". The statement "can't be recycled" is totally false. Many companies have started successful recycling programs and here in Nevada where I live, lithium mining by evaporating salts is big business utilizing the old "poison waterholes" from old Western movies to get some use out of lifeless, desolate wasteland area. Myself, I have been driving electric over 7 years now, the last two getting fueled for free from our rooftop solar. The carbon industry is scared to death of electric vehicles wiping away their livelyhood and so are car dealers as, like I can assure you from my personal use, maintainance and repair of electric vehicles is a tiny fraction of that of petroleum cars. Most electric cars never get their brakes replaced unless parts rust off from age.


While it IS "possible" to "recycle" (as in fully break down a Lith battery to the basic components and purity) the problem is to do so IS prohibitively EXPENSIVE to do so.

To break down all of the components to their purest form that is required takes considerable amount of more energy than just digging up new raw material and processing it to a ready usable product.

This is where old fashioned Lead Acid batteries shine, they are easy to break down, reprocess and make new batteries from without adding a drop of lead to them.

NOBODY is going to be willing to pay MORE for a vehicle or battery which is tagged as "RECYCLED" or contains "RECYCLED CONTENT". The cost will be much higher than a new battery..

My suspicion is majority of EV owners will not ever consider repairing their car when it breaks or when the battery fails, instead they are going to treat it just like they do with pretty much their Iphones, TVs and other items..

It will be traded in for a "new" model, the old one will simply be sent directly to the scrap yard. It is nothing more than an "appliance".

Just because it can be made, does not mean it is environmentally friendly..

Folks now days demand having the newest, latest, greatest things with more bells buzzers and whistles to break..

How about just a SIMPLE, no frills basic vehicle which does not cost so much you have to put it on a 20 yr payment plan? I don't need a self driving car, I don't need internet in my car, I don't need a game console in my car, I don't need a 360 camera in my car.. Four wheels, brakes, motive power, steering wheel and a seat and a simple body with some heat and AC for comfort.

The sad thing is 10, 20, 30 yrs or more our grandkids and their grand kids will be left with to deal with heaps and heaps of these so called "environmentally friendly" worn out EV batteries littering the earth when discarded.


Nope. Used EV batteries are already in high demand. Expected real world lifespan of the cells is 30 years. Never make assumptions on todays technology. In three years it will be a different game.

PS. I'm one of those who trade in their vehicle every 5 or 6 years. (I like tech) Whoever gets my EV next spring will have an amazing problem free EV with probably at least another decade of life...if not more. We have a bunch of neighbours who have already called dibs.

Gdetrailer
Explorer III
Explorer III
garyemunson wrote:
This entire thread should be deleted as it is based on the right wing talking point of "EVs bad!". The statement "can't be recycled" is totally false. Many companies have started successful recycling programs and here in Nevada where I live, lithium mining by evaporating salts is big business utilizing the old "poison waterholes" from old Western movies to get some use out of lifeless, desolate wasteland area. Myself, I have been driving electric over 7 years now, the last two getting fueled for free from our rooftop solar. The carbon industry is scared to death of electric vehicles wiping away their livelyhood and so are car dealers as, like I can assure you from my personal use, maintainance and repair of electric vehicles is a tiny fraction of that of petroleum cars. Most electric cars never get their brakes replaced unless parts rust off from age.


While it IS "possible" to "recycle" (as in fully break down a Lith battery to the basic components and purity) the problem is to do so IS prohibitively EXPENSIVE to do so.

To break down all of the components to their purest form that is required takes considerable amount of more energy than just digging up new raw material and processing it to a ready usable product.

This is where old fashioned Lead Acid batteries shine, they are easy to break down, reprocess and make new batteries from without adding a drop of lead to them.

NOBODY is going to be willing to pay MORE for a vehicle or battery which is tagged as "RECYCLED" or contains "RECYCLED CONTENT". The cost will be much higher than a new battery..

My suspicion is majority of EV owners will not ever consider repairing their car when it breaks or when the battery fails, instead they are going to treat it just like they do with pretty much their Iphones, TVs and other items..

It will be traded in for a "new" model, the old one will simply be sent directly to the scrap yard. It is nothing more than an "appliance".

Just because it can be made, does not mean it is environmentally friendly..

Folks now days demand having the newest, latest, greatest things with more bells buzzers and whistles to break..

How about just a SIMPLE, no frills basic vehicle which does not cost so much you have to put it on a 20 yr payment plan? I don't need a self driving car, I don't need internet in my car, I don't need a game console in my car, I don't need a 360 camera in my car.. Four wheels, brakes, motive power, steering wheel and a seat and a simple body with some heat and AC for comfort.

The sad thing is 10, 20, 30 yrs or more our grandkids and their grand kids will be left with to deal with heaps and heaps of these so called "environmentally friendly" worn out EV batteries littering the earth when discarded.

3_tons
Explorer
Explorer
profdant139 wrote:
Actually, Gary, this thread actually illustrates the value of dialogue. I am a pro-EV person -- we are considering getting an EV car for DW, who does not need much range. And yes, we have solar panels on our roof at home.

But I had never stopped to think about the finite nature of lithium, until the OP posted a question. And then I did a little googling and found that yes, although lithium is plentiful in the short run, there are long term concerns.

So I discovered something by actually listening to someone with whom I might disagree. This is a good thing.

I am confident that the market will supply an alternative, just as LED bulbs have really "outshone" incandescents. And remember that in the late 1800s, city planners were getting worried about all of the horse manure in the streets of the bigger cities, until cars came along to the rescue.

So yes, some threads can turn into partisan rants, on both sides. But other threads can serve as respectful exchanges of information and opinion.

It all depends on us, the forum participants!


Ha, I seriously doubt we’d disagree on all that much, and due to the stated likelihood of managed grid outages in CA, were one to have rooftop solar I believe that EV’s make particularly strong case, as does a standby Li battery bank strategy, to become self-sufficient...

FWIW, having gained some hands-on experience wiring an entire project camper with a sine inverter-charger, converter, main panel, sub-panel, solar, air conditioner, Danfoss dc compressor refer and Li battery - and after running this system through it’s paces (while measuring the results, air cond. ON) my next coach battery will definitely be Li...

I attempt to approach this more from an objective point of view rather than a theology...

naturist
Nomad
Nomad
So I came across a discussion of the newly invented "solid state battery" which the inventors claim will provide 2-5 times the energy density of the best current lithium batteries, use sodium instead of lithium (vastly more sodium in the sea than lithium anywhere) and be cheaper to build. The author pointed out that it took 13 years for lithium batteries to move from the lab to widespread production, and that while you aren't likely to see them in use in the next couple years, it probably won't be any 13 years, either.