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 > My perception on real gas

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philh

Belleville MI

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Posted: 01/07/20 04:26pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

regards to real gas smelling different, wife's garage queen always gets put away in the fall with real gas. It definitely smells different.

All my lawn equipment is run on Aviation Fuel aka AVGAS, that stuff is good for years without additives. But at $5.50 per gallon, and there is the problem of lead, it's not something I would put into any vehicle.

rightlaneonly

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Posted: 01/07/20 04:47pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I find if I just wash the windshield I can see further down the road. Somehow I therefore must be getting better mileage.


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Huntindog

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Posted: 01/07/20 05:45pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Maybe I should tell my buddy to change his car from an alkie car to a gasoline car if gas makes more power.

There is a reason alkie makes more power than gasoline. Especially in supercharged cars. Alkie has O2 in it and gasoline does not.

Alkie (or gasoline with alkie) also has higher octane which does wonders with power on supercharged vehicles.
I have a pure apple to apples experience on this.
In 97 or so, I joinned a sprint car race team. In the begining we ran a mini sprint, and the rules allowed either gas or alcohol. The car we had ran on gas. Power was not an issue.There were only 2-3 gas powered cars running, and we had the only consistant front runner. It was a bit of a hassle, as the alcohol guys were suspicious of the gas guys. When we had a good night there was always a challange as to our fuel being doctored. We had to have it tested often, always passing the test. We soon went to alcohol, partly because of the hassle, but mostly because the motor just ran too hot on gas. The alcohol carbs were huge, and the consuption skyrocketed, but the motor ran nice and cool.

The consenusus was that the volume of alcohol was shedding more heat out of the exhaust.
IDN, but I do know that power was not an issue with either fuel..It just took a LOT more alcohol to do the job compared to gas.



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Turtle n Peeps

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Posted: 01/07/20 11:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Please stop saying incorrect things like:

Grit dog wrote:


You're correct that you "can" make more power with oxygenated fuel in alot of applications.


Do you not get it? Did you not read the article I supplied. There is no "alot of applications." Any motor WILL make more power if you give it more 02 and fuel in any given time. PERIOD!

A motor does not know if it's in a motorhome or if it's in a chainsaw. It does not matter if it is an 049 Cox motor powering a model airplane or if it's a 500 inch prostock motor. The more 02 it gets the more power it will make.

You can post straw man argument about tuning or certain cams or compression ratio's or whatever. All of that makes NO difference because the more 02 you can give a motor the more power it will make. Period! E10 is an 02 fuel so it WILL give you more power on ANY engine. E85 will give you even more power and methanol will give you even more power and nitro will give you even more power.....
(BTW all engines made now days have EFI which will always keep it in stoichiometry. They arn't even close to 100% duty cycle on the injectors so no you won't top your injectors out with E10)

If you disagree, fine. Post any legit article and I will read it.

Don't let your ego stand in the way of your education.


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Turtle n Peeps

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Posted: 01/07/20 11:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Maybe I should tell my buddy to change his car from an alkie car to a gasoline car if gas makes more power.

There is a reason alkie makes more power than gasoline. Especially in supercharged cars. Alkie has O2 in it and gasoline does not.

Alkie (or gasoline with alkie) also has higher octane which does wonders with power on supercharged vehicles.
I have a pure apple to apples experience on this.
In 97 or so, I joinned a sprint car race team. In the begining we ran a mini sprint, and the rules allowed either gas or alcohol. The car we had ran on gas. Power was not an issue.There were only 2-3 gas powered cars running, and we had the only consistant front runner. It was a bit of a hassle, as the alcohol guys were suspicious of the gas guys. When we had a good night there was always a challange as to our fuel being doctored. We had to have it tested often, always passing the test. We soon went to alcohol, partly because of the hassle, but mostly because the motor just ran too hot on gas. The alcohol carbs were huge, and the consuption skyrocketed, but the motor ran nice and cool.

The consenusus was that the volume of alcohol was shedding more heat out of the exhaust.
IDN, but I do know that power was not an issue with either fuel..It just took a LOT more alcohol to do the job compared to gas.


Yep Dog, we had sort of the same thing going on.

On cool days our gas engine could hang with the alkie boys. But in the hot weather we would flat out get left off of the turn. They would pull a lot harder because the alkie had it's own O2 on board the fuel unlike our gas. We also ran carbs so it would intercool the manifold which gave them even more power.

The alkie boys had a hard time to keep their handling in check because they burned twice the fuel (methanol) and that would upset the handling of the car later in the race.

They would burn twice the fuel and upset their handling but they would also make more power.

Just like life. Give and take.

OP here is a good article on gas & alkie. (Yes I know this is about methanol and the E in E10 is ethanol. And you will get more power out of methanol than ethanol for the reasons you get more power out of ethanol than gasoline.)

4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 01/08/20 03:26am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Please stop saying incorrect things like:

Grit dog wrote:


You're correct that you "can" make more power with oxygenated fuel in alot of applications.


Do you not get it? Did you not read the article I supplied. There is no "alot of applications." Any motor WILL make more power if you give it more 02 and fuel in any given time. PERIOD!

A motor does not know if it's in a motorhome or if it's in a chainsaw. It does not matter if it is an 049 Cox motor powering a model airplane or if it's a 500 inch prostock motor. The more 02 it gets the more power it will make.

You can post straw man argument about tuning or certain cams or compression ratio's or whatever. All of that makes NO difference because the more 02 you can give a motor the more power it will make. Period! E10 is an 02 fuel so it WILL give you more power on ANY engine. E85 will give you even more power and methanol will give you even more power and nitro will give you even more power.....
(BTW all engines made now days have EFI which will always keep it in stoichiometry. They arn't even close to 100% duty cycle on the injectors so no you won't top your injectors out with E10)

If you disagree, fine. Post any legit article and I will read it.

Don't let your ego stand in the way of your education.


I think I get it Turtle. An engine can burn more fuel per time if its breathing more oxygen per time and therefore make more power. In order for an engine to make more power the fuel injection system would necessarily need to adjust to decrease the a/f ratio.

The stoichiometric a/f ratio of pure gasoline is 14.7:1. E10 has a stoichiometric a/f ratio of 14.08:1. So the math tells me that the fuel injection system should call for 4% more fuel when e10 is being burned vs pure gasoline. But e10 has about 3% less energy than does pure gasoline so I'm going to expect 1% more power and 3% less mileage out of e10 vs pure gasoline. You'd need a pretty well tuned butt to feel a 1% increase in power.


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dodge guy

Bartlett IL

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Posted: 01/08/20 05:37am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Please stop saying incorrect things like:

Grit dog wrote:


You're correct that you "can" make more power with oxygenated fuel in alot of applications.


Do you not get it? Did you not read the article I supplied. There is no "alot of applications." Any motor WILL make more power if you give it more 02 and fuel in any given time. PERIOD!

A motor does not know if it's in a motorhome or if it's in a chainsaw. It does not matter if it is an 049 Cox motor powering a model airplane or if it's a 500 inch prostock motor. The more 02 it gets the more power it will make.

You can post straw man argument about tuning or certain cams or compression ratio's or whatever. All of that makes NO difference because the more 02 you can give a motor the more power it will make. Period! E10 is an 02 fuel so it WILL give you more power on ANY engine. E85 will give you even more power and methanol will give you even more power and nitro will give you even more power.....
(BTW all engines made now days have EFI which will always keep it in stoichiometry. They arn't even close to 100% duty cycle on the injectors so no you won't top your injectors out with E10)

If you disagree, fine. Post any legit article and I will read it.

Don't let your ego stand in the way of your education.


So then why did my V-10 Excursion run best with straight 93 but not on 93 with 10% ethanol?


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mkirsch

Rochester, NY

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Posted: 01/08/20 07:27am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Jayco-noslide wrote:

Pretty sure with 10% ethanol you lose 25% MPG. So it has to be something like 50 cents cheaper to break even?


My experience is, even after running multiple tanks of non-ethanol gasoline through a vehicle in succession, that the loss is NOWHERE near 25%. More like <10%.


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aftermath

Washington State

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Posted: 01/08/20 08:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

This has been an enjoyable read. The experts, on both sides, have jumped in and yet it still remains quite confusing. One issue that has yet to be mentioned is why do we have blended gas today? It was a government decision made to help improve the atmosphere. I lived in southern California in the '60s. Driving down into the LA basin was like driving into a black/brown cloud of pollution. It was visible, it was uncomfortable to the eyes and it even smelled. Today, even tough there are many more cars and trucks, it isn't even close to what it used to be.
When the experiment began there were many good arguments against it. Existing engines were not designed to deal with ethanol. It did create issues with loss of power and degrading of rubber tubing and such. Today, those arguments no longer exist,unless you are driving a classic.
So, if you don't care about the air we breathe, and you willingly agree to pay extra at the pump in search of a tiny improvement in power and mileage then buy that "real" gas. My "gut feeling" is that you will notice perhaps a very small increase in performance while you pay a small increase in money all the while you increase your footprint in polluting the air we all share.


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Lynnmor

Red Lion

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

For the most part, ethanol exists to buy votes in those square states.





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