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 > My perception on real gas

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Bedlam

PNW

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The last study I have seen was that creating Ethanol took more energy than the result. Although it may be cleaner burning, this makes little sense to me. I see it more as farm subsidy than alternate energy source.


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mkirsch

Rochester, NY

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bedlam wrote:

The last study I have seen was that creating Ethanol took more energy than the result. Although it may be cleaner burning, this makes little sense to me. I see it more as farm subsidy than alternate energy source.


Except, there is no longer an ethanol subsidy being paid. Hasn't been one for years.

When there was a subsidy corn was pushing $8 a bushel. Now it's <$4 a bushel, same price range as it was in 1974.

Only farmers get to work for the same pay they were receiving 46 years ago.


Putting 10-ply tires on half ton trucks since aught-four.

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:26am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"If you disagree, fine. Post any legit article and I will read it."

I get it and I said I agree with you at least twice. With the caveat being if you "can" give it more fuel, or if you "know" what the actual fuel was.
There are plenty of scenarios where you "can't" give it more fuel, so the equal volume of alky laced gasoline will make less power, all other things equal.
Besides, when we're talking E10 and a max of 3% difference, unless in a very controlled setting, that is borderline imperceptible.
However, unless you're certain that when the OPs engine is running pure gas, it pulls enough fuel back compared to running E10 to put it at a disadvantage compared to E10 then your broad brush statement doesn't work.
All I'm saying is you 100% dismissed that it is possible for the OPs truck to run better on pure gas than E10 and that it in fact had to have been making less power.
Of course we're splitting hairs here, now, because apples to apples, that 3% difference is now likely 2% because there was 1/4 tank of E10 left in the tank upon fillup, or maybe it was 1.5% because the E10 was actually only 6% ethanol.

Again, I AGREE with you on the merits of alcohol content in fuel. But in an uncontrolled experiment it does not mean those inherent merits had any positive affect, and as you claim, they could not have possibly had ANY negative effect which is countering the OP's butt dyno.


"Yes Sir, Oct 10 1888, Those poor school children froze to death in their tracks. They did not even find them until Spring. Especially hard hit were the ones who had to trek uphill to school both ways, with no shoes." -Bert A.

Bedlam

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:39am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If fuel is mandated to be mixed with ethanol, it creates an artificial demand that would not exist without this requirement. Perhaps direct subsidies are not going to the farmers, but a demand is still being created for them.

I have a hard time understanding the economics of farming. I see many farms working at a loss year after year and just building up debt until the farm collapses and bankruptcy clears the debt. I am not close enough to this industry to see where the disconnect is between pricing, supply and demand.

philh

Belleville MI

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Posted: 01/08/20 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bedlam wrote:

The last study I have seen was that creating Ethanol took more energy than the result. Although it may be cleaner burning, this makes little sense to me. I see it more as farm subsidy than alternate energy source.

The concept as proposed, ethanol would save oil. Reality is, it uses as much, if not more than it saves.

Even worse is the amount of water that is poured on the crops to increase the yield. In south central MI, they've had to dig the wells deeper and the quality of water that is coming out of the wells has gotten much worse.

MFL

Midwest

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Posted: 01/08/20 10:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bedlam wrote:

If fuel is mandated to be mixed with ethanol, it creates an artificial demand that would not exist without this requirement. Perhaps direct subsidies are not going to the farmers, but a demand is still being created for them.

I have a hard time understanding the economics of farming. I see many farms working at a loss year after year and just building up debt until the farm collapses and bankruptcy clears the debt. I am not close enough to this industry to see where the disconnect is between pricing, supply and demand.


Yes, like any market, corn goes up/down, but using it to make ethanol does create an artificial market. Farmers get many subsidies, a nice term for handouts, to keep them going. If one does not run any business responsibly, it will fail. You can't squander the money made during good years, then expect a handout when a lean year follows. Another problem is operating a 250K farm with a million dollars worth of equipment. It is nice to get the planting/harvesting done in a week, but not necessary.

However, like most things political, it is the producers of this ethanol that are flourishing, using every ones tax dollars. They are the ones the politicians are helping, as they help the politicians. On the open market ethanol would not work, it costs way more than gasoline to produce. By using tax dollars to pay this high price, it has eliminated the competition for regular gas. Stations can't sell much regular for .30 a gallon more, so most don't even sell it. Without our tax dollars, it would be reversed, no one would pay more for ethanol.

Apologize for the rant, not meant to offend anyone, other than these filthy rich ethanol producers, that are bribing our elected officials.

Jerry





Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 01/08/20 12:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

Maybe I should tell my buddy to change his car from an alkie car to a gasoline car if gas makes more power.

There is a reason alkie makes more power than gasoline. Especially in supercharged cars. Alkie has O2 in it and gasoline does not.

Alkie (or gasoline with alkie) also has higher octane which does wonders with power on supercharged vehicles.
I have a pure apple to apples experience on this.
In 97 or so, I joinned a sprint car race team. In the begining we ran a mini sprint, and the rules allowed either gas or alcohol. The car we had ran on gas. Power was not an issue.There were only 2-3 gas powered cars running, and we had the only consistant front runner. It was a bit of a hassle, as the alcohol guys were suspicious of the gas guys. When we had a good night there was always a challange as to our fuel being doctored. We had to have it tested often, always passing the test. We soon went to alcohol, partly because of the hassle, but mostly because the motor just ran too hot on gas. The alcohol carbs were huge, and the consuption skyrocketed, but the motor ran nice and cool.

The consenusus was that the volume of alcohol was shedding more heat out of the exhaust.
IDN, but I do know that power was not an issue with either fuel..It just took a LOT more alcohol to do the job compared to gas.


Yep Dog, we had sort of the same thing going on.

On cool days our gas engine could hang with the alkie boys. But in the hot weather we would flat out get left off of the turn. They would pull a lot harder because the alkie had it's own O2 on board the fuel unlike our gas. We also ran carbs so it would intercool the manifold which gave them even more power.

The alkie boys had a hard time to keep their handling in check because they burned twice the fuel (methanol) and that would upset the handling of the car later in the race.

They would burn twice the fuel and upset their handling but they would also make more power.

Just like life. Give and take.

OP here is a good article on gas & alkie. (Yes I know this is about methanol and the E in E10 is ethanol. And you will get more power out of methanol than ethanol for the reasons you get more power out of ethanol than gasoline.)
For us, both fuels provided good power. lap times were good with both. The gas power though got the oil hotter than wqas desireable.
When we went to alcohol, there was a new issue:
Weight. The weight of the extra fuel we had to have in the cell. That made for many debates in the pits. How much extra weight vs. running out, and how it changed the handling of the car. The gas used so much less, as to make that a non issue.



Huntindog
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mich800

Pontiac, MI

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Posted: 01/08/20 01:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bedlam wrote:

If fuel is mandated to be mixed with ethanol, it creates an artificial demand that would not exist without this requirement. Perhaps direct subsidies are not going to the farmers, but a demand is still being created for them.

I have a hard time understanding the economics of farming. I see many farms working at a loss year after year and just building up debt until the farm collapses and bankruptcy clears the debt. I am not close enough to this industry to see where the disconnect is between pricing, supply and demand.


I cannot think of one fuel source that does not have subsidies in some form. So whether it is to the consumer, producer or supplier, gas, electric, or other someone is getting a kick back.

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