Good Sam Club Open Roads Forum: Ford V10 vs Pending V8
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 > Ford V10 vs Pending V8

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Cider

Central Oregon

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Posted: 02/04/20 03:59pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Lot of things about the new V8 are tempting, but in reality, I don't see a lot of difference between the current (proven) V10 and the 7.3 V8.Mileage is about he same, considering you are driving a box down the road, so I cant really see aerodynamics playing any part. The 10 speed transmission is a good idea, but what is the reality you will ever gett into 10th gear? I can foresee an awful lot of up / down shifting going on with the transmission, especially on any grade. I went with the V10, and am quite happy with the performance and I know what I have - not an unproven engine being tested for the first year or two by the consumer. JMO. Now, if it had been the 7.3 diesel .......

Grit dog

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Posted: 08/05/20 11:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

carringb wrote:



The 6-speed transmission is being retained for the motorhome chassis (E-series and F53 stripped chassis). I suspect this is due to a combination of: 1) The tallest ratios of the 10 speed being unusable in a motorhome, and 2) the lowest ratios making too much torque for the existing drivetrain, which is unchanged. It will gain hill-start assist and "neutral idle" to reduce fuel consumption in town.



I suspect neither of these reasons are the reasons why and that it's possibly related to the old chassis design still being used (chassis modifications maybe needed for 10 speed), but not likely. All the same though, it's likely just an economic decision and not a capability decision.
In all cases, the gasser E chassis gcvws and all but the heaviset gcvw Class A chassis are less than the heaviest F350-F550 gasser 10 speed gcvw.
Considering the new trans could be the only possible "weak link" which it isn't, as it's the same trans used with the powerstrokes and non-derated gasser 10 speeds (with heavier gcvw) and the rest is standard 1 ton+ truck components (the axle) behind a de-rated engine with low final gearing than a pickup.
And the first and 10th gear ratios are not different enough to call them unusable.
First gear and the splits from gear to gear are BETTER for any heavy setup than the 6 speed and maybe 10th is too tall to cruise in, but who cares, program it to be an 8 or 9 speed if that's the case. Should take some enginerd about 5min to write that code.

Bottom line, the cutaway van chassis vehicles are designed to be more plebian, less powerful, cheaper (more economical, whatever) than the F series, not designed for maximum capacity and price.
A class C would be more capable as a gasser F450/550 super C than an E450 Van cutaway. But normal C's on van chassis's are price point vehicles, comparatively.


"Yes Sir, Oct 10 1888, Those poor school children froze to death in their tracks. They did not even find them until Spring. Especially hard hit were the ones who had to trek uphill to school both ways, with no shoes." -Bert A.

ron.dittmer

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Posted: 08/06/20 07:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

PatJ wrote:

The new 7.3 is a beast on paper, no doubt.

One of the reasons we expedited our purchase new in 2019, after many years of lollygagging, is because we were worried the V10 would disappear in 2020. That fear pushed us over the edge. The V10 was proven reliable in the long term, with cheap parts, cheap maintenance, and plenty of power for Class C. So we upgraded.

The 6 speed trans was more recent, but it is used in rigs with much more power than the V10 and much more GVWR and GCWR than any class C I would ever purchase.

I went with the proven reliable V10 and 6spd and have zero regrets. I'm sure the 7.3 has a good bit more performance, but additional performance to me wasn't worth the risk with less-proven equipment. Just my opinion and I don't know anything about anything.
What Pat said sums up my thoughts. If I were in the market for a brand new rig today but could continue with what I have for a year or two longer, that would be better. I would feel more comfortable with a 2022, but better yet a 2023 chassis.


2007 Phoenix Cruiser model 2350, with 2006 Jeep Liberty in-tow


carringb

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Posted: 08/06/20 07:23pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:



I suspect neither of these reasons are the reasons why and that it's possibly related to the old chassis design still being used (chassis modifications maybe needed for 10 speed), but not likely. All the same though, it's likely just an economic decision and not a capability decision.
A class C would be more capable as a gasser F450/550 super C than an E450 Van cutaway. But normal C's on van chassis's are price point vehicles, comparatively.


My point wasn't that the 10-speed isn't capable (it is). It's that the rest of the current E-series driveline can't cope with the extra torque that would be delivered by the lower gearing in the 10-speed, so they'd have to limit power in those gears. The E-series is still using a Dana 80 housing with a modified carrier for 10.75" gears and a small-ish driveline. All F-series are now running the Dana M series axles.

BTW - Tuning and certification for the 7.3L is now common to the E & F-series over 14,000 GVWR (and Ford claims power levels are the same, only the certification method differs). Exception that fleets can select the "economy" tune in the E-series. There just isn't much advantage to stuffing the 10-speed under there unless they also upgrade the rest of the drivetrain. Which I hope they do. But they already previewed the 2022 changes, and it's limited to an smaller doghouse. No drivetrain changes were posted.


Bryan

2000 Ford E450 V10 VAN! 450,000+ miles
2014 ORV really big trailer
2015 Ford Focus ST


Grit dog

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Posted: 08/07/20 09:00am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

carringb wrote:



My point wasn't that the 10-speed isn't capable (it is). It's that the rest of the current E-series driveline can't cope with the extra torque that would be delivered by the lower gearing in the 10-speed, so they'd have to limit power in those gears. The E-series is still using a Dana 80 housing with a modified carrier for 10.75" gears and a small-ish driveline. All F-series are now running the Dana M series axles.

BTW - Tuning and certification for the 7.3L is now common to the E & F-series over 14,000 GVWR (and Ford claims power levels are the same, only the certification method differs). Exception that fleets can select the "economy" tune in the E-series. There just isn't much advantage to stuffing the 10-speed under there unless they also upgrade the rest of the drivetrain. Which I hope they do. But they already previewed the 2022 changes, and it's limited to an smaller doghouse. No drivetrain changes were posted.


Well, that's good that the engine power isn't de-rated. Cause that sort of reduced the appeal of a big new powerful engine.
I still don't buy that the rest of the driveline can't handle it. The Dana 80 isn't overpowered by that torque, by a long margin and the stresses aren't appreciably less. First gear is still pretty deep on the 6 speed 4.2? ratio vs 4.5? ratio on the 10 speed. And even if the driveshaft is at it's absolute limit with a slightly taller gear ratio of the 6 speed, It's an easy change to shore that up.

Bottom line, IMO it's price point thing. Vans and cutaways are utility vehicles not performance vehicles in the least.

ron.dittmer

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Posted: 08/09/20 08:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

A Phoenix Cruiser forum member recently visited the Phoenix Cruiser factory in Elkhart, IN. They have been building PCs exclusively on the new engine platform for some time now. This leaves me to wonder if the V10 platform is long gone now.

pnichols

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Posted: 08/10/20 10:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Comparing the specs of the 3-valve V10 that Ford provided in trucks and Class A motorhomes (the less powerful 2-valve V10 was used in vans) and the new V8, I don't see a significant difference in maximum horsepower and maximum torque between the two.

What I do think I see is that: The new V8 develops it's horsepower and torque within a lower RPM range, and that - more importantly for Class C motorhome use - the new V8 probably fits into the cutaway E350 and E450 chassis in the one and only stock horsepower and torque configuration as will be used in all other Ford vehicles with it.

If the above is the case, then the folks who would not use the V10 to it's fullest by rev'ing it ... will be happier with the new V8 in whatever vehicle it's in.

* This post was edited 08/11/20 12:21am by pnichols *


Phil, 2005 E450 Itasca Spirit 24V

camperdave

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Posted: 08/10/20 10:46am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pnichols wrote:

Comparing the specs of the 3-valve V10 that Ford provided in trucks and Class A motorhomes (the less powerful 2-valve V10 was used in vans) and the new V8, I don't see a significant difference in maximum horsepower and maximum torque between the two.

What I do think I see is that: The new V8 develops it's horsepower and torque within a lower RPM range, and that - more importantly for Class C motorhome use - the new V8 probably fits into the cutaway E350 and E450 chassis in the one and only stock horsepower and torque configuration as will be used in all other Ford vehicles with it.

If the above is the case, then the folks who would not use the V10 to it's fullest by rev'ing it ... will be happier with the new V8 in whatwever vehicle it's in.


Yeah, if the 7.3 is not-derated in the E450, that would be a significant boost over the current 2 valver. I'd personally love a torque monster low revver over the V10, though I'm perfectly pleased with the performance of my 15 year old V10 too (and even the 22 year old V10 in my van). If buying new (I'm certainly not anytime soon) I'd opt for the V8. But in the second year, just in case. [emoticon]


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ron.dittmer

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Posted: 08/10/20 03:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

camperdave wrote:

But in the second year, just in case.
The longer the better. I think year #5 is ideal. It gives the manufacture to work through the little irritations as well as the reliability stuff.

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