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 > F350 Super Duty vs 3500 Denali vs The Ike Pulling 30k lbs

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rhagfo

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Posted: 01/25/20 08:32pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Travlingman wrote:

That is pretty impressive for the Ford running 3.55 gearing. The 10 speed seems to be doing its job.

Don't understand why you would start downhill with 30K behind you and not have exhaust brake on.


Well they stated on auto setting, I know Ram has Full and Auto. I run full when not towing, and auto when towing and using tow/Haul, that combination works very well at holding speed.


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rhagfo

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Posted: 01/25/20 09:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:



The interesting thing about the Cummins vs Duramax is that the Duramax makes 445 Hp @ 2800 rpm vs the 400 hp of the Cummins. But as the Duramax pulls down it dramatically looses power. In fact if it were allowed to pull down all the way to 1600 rpm where it makes peak torque it would loose 167 hp. The Cummins on the other hand looses very little hp as the engine slows down. In fact the Cummins only looses 57 hp slowing from 2800 rpm down to 1800 rpm where it makes its peak torque. For this reason the Cummins doesn't need a 10 speed to compete with the Duramax. The Cummins will be putting out more power than the Duramax at rpms below 2250. Above 2250 the higher power of the Duramax starts to come into play.
The Ram's ability to produce power at a lower rpm might allow it to get a little better fuel economy under certain conditions.


Well once again I think it has more to do with torque than hp, the Cummins has a 45 hp DISADVANTAGE to the Duramax, BUT a 90 lb ft torque ADVANTAGE to the Duramax.

4x4ord wrote:



Ford did dominate the uphill run. The difference in time indicates a 46 horsepower advantage that the Ford has which is a little more than the difference in advertised power ratings.


Well while the Ford does have a 46 hp advantage, it also has a 140 Lb Ft torque advantage.

Towing heavy is more about torque than HP!


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Posted: 01/25/20 09:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The way the Ford exhaust brake works on auto is that it tries to hold the vehicle to the speed at which it was going at the time that either the brake or throttle was last released. So if the driver applies the brake pedal to slow to 35 mph and takes his foot off the brake, the exhaust brake will try to maintain 35 mph. If he then steps on the throttle to accelerate to 45 mph and releases the throttle, the exhaust brake will try to maintain 45 mph. In the video the driver could have avoided making additional brake applications and as the truck continued to gain speed it would have triggered an automatic brake application to bring the unit back to 35 mph. The braking is so smooth it is hard to feel where the braking is coming from. During this test the Ford may have done some auto brake applications that Andre and Mr Truck where unaware of. The tell tale sign of automatic brake applications are: 1. the trailer brake controller displays the level of electric trailer braking on the dash, 2. the truck and trailer brake lamps illuminate.


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Travlingman

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Posted: 01/25/20 09:17pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

Travlingman wrote:

That is pretty impressive for the Ford running 3.55 gearing. The 10 speed seems to be doing its job.

Don't understand why you would start downhill with 30K behind you and not have exhaust brake on.


Well they stated on auto setting, I know Ram has Full and Auto. I run full when not towing, and auto when towing and using tow/Haul, that combination works very well at holding speed.


They started just using cruise control and said it gained speed. They had to hit the brake and then used auto engine brake setting. The Ford has 2 settings for the engine brake, manual and auto. Manual gets more aggressive every time you touch the brake, and auto holds the speed when you lift off of the go pedal.


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2001400ex

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Posted: 01/25/20 09:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

4X, you understand all the technical stuff and how to apply it. I have always respected you for this ability. I have consistently felt my truck wouldn’t make a difference with a 10 speed just from seeing how my truck performs. That is why I am curious how the 20 RAM we’ll compare to the others.

On the test you mention I felt the GM should have destroyed the RAM with all the 10 speed hype but it didn’t.


The point of the 10 speed is getting the RPMs in the just optimal gear for whatever task you are doing.. For not towing, cruising on the freeway, that's a lower RPM for fuel economy. While towing it's a higher RPM for the right power and torque ratio. And after driving my Duramax 8,000 miles, in most situations I think it's a couple hundred RPM too low. At least for my preference.

When it comes to comparing to 6 speed Cummins, every unloaded 0-60 or quarter mile, the Duramax/Allison kills the Cummins/Aisin. However, pulling a mountain, as long as the 6 speed gets it in the right RPM range, it'll pull as good as the Duramax.


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4x4ord

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Posted: 01/25/20 09:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

4x4ord wrote:



The interesting thing about the Cummins vs Duramax is that the Duramax makes 445 Hp @ 2800 rpm vs the 400 hp of the Cummins. But as the Duramax pulls down it dramatically looses power. In fact if it were allowed to pull down all the way to 1600 rpm where it makes peak torque it would loose 167 hp. The Cummins on the other hand looses very little hp as the engine slows down. In fact the Cummins only looses 57 hp slowing from 2800 rpm down to 1800 rpm where it makes its peak torque. For this reason the Cummins doesn't need a 10 speed to compete with the Duramax. The Cummins will be putting out more power than the Duramax at rpms below 2250. Above 2250 the higher power of the Duramax starts to come into play.
The Ram's ability to produce power at a lower rpm might allow it to get a little better fuel economy under certain conditions.


Well once again I think it has more to do with torque than hp, the Cummins has a 45 hp DISADVANTAGE to the Duramax, BUT a 90 lb ft torque ADVANTAGE to the Duramax.

4x4ord wrote:



Ford did dominate the uphill run. The difference in time indicates a 46 horsepower advantage that the Ford has which is a little more than the difference in advertised power ratings.


Well while the Ford does have a 46 hp advantage, it also has a 140 Lb Ft torque advantage.

Towing heavy is more about torque than HP!



You are right. The peak torque defines the power level at the lower end of the power band. The peak HP defines the power level at the upper end of the power band. With a 10 speed transmission the Duramax will do much better because it can run closer to the rpm where it makes peak HP. A higher torque and lower HP engine such as the Cummins is not as concerned about its rpm. If you were to compare the power or torque curves of the Cummins and Duramax you would find that below about 2250 rpm the Cummins makes more hp where as above about 2250 rpm the Duramax makes more power. And, so, at about 2250 rpm the two engines make identical HP.


Edit: Just to state it another way you can talk HP or torque it makes no difference. In other words, above 2250 rpm the Duramax makes more torque than the Cummins and below about 2250 rpm the Cummins makes more torque than the Duramax does.

* This post was edited 01/25/20 10:00pm by 4x4ord *

rhagfo

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Posted: 01/26/20 06:31am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

SidecarFlip wrote:

Those clowns need a real job.


??? [emoticon] [emoticon]

Thanks for sharing, Fish. The new Ford is certainly impressive!


I just wish t hey would define a standard set of test, then stick to them. I don't know how long they get to have these vehicles to do their "Test" but it seems they have no standard for the downhill test!

Me Again

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Posted: 01/26/20 08:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

In those conditions, it would be difficult to do a comparison, unless they were run side by side..

Another thing stuck out for me.

They said that their new standard was a perfect run is now 10 minutes... IIRC, it used to be 8 minutes. Either the climb has gotten longer, or the speed limit for the test has decreased.

Or was this a one time reduction due to the weather conditions?

They don't say.

As for the concerns about the temps.... Not an issue in these conditions. Run them up in the summer and it will likely be a different story

I would like to see the tranny ratios for each 10 speed tranny as well.



I fixed your post, so it is easier to read. Chris

* This post was last edited 01/26/20 08:41am by Me Again *   View edit history


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FishOnOne

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Posted: 01/26/20 08:40am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Me Again wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

In those conditions, it would be difficult to do a comparison, unless they were run side by side..

Another thing stuck out for me.

They said that their new standard was a perfect run is now 10 minutes... IIRC, it used to be 8 minutes. Either the climb has gotten longer, or the speed limit for the test has decreased.

Or was this a one time reduction due to the weather conditions?

They don't say.

As for the concerns about the temps.... Not an issue in these conditions. Run them up in the summer and it will likely be a different story

I would like to see the tranny ratios for each 10 speed tranny as well.


I fixed your post, so it is easier to read. Chris


In the video they said this is the new test standard for 2020 HD trucks which was very brief. Another change is the braking test now has a range of 35-40 mph because they're in a different weight category. Also the reason for using the cruise control was because of viewers request.

* This post was last edited 01/26/20 11:10am by FishOnOne *   View edit history


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4x4ord

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Posted: 01/26/20 09:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

^^^ With 30k in tow the trucks needed multiple brake applications at 35 mph. You can imagine what would have happened at 50 mph.

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