Battle Born Charging

[BFL13]

This might answer some recent questions.

The table is not accurate wrt to the BB comments--don't go by it by the table itself. Wade through the questions and answers to get the true picture. Takes a while to go through the comments, but that's where the info is.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/charger-compatibility-table/

[cptqueeg]

All- I think this is a wonderful discussion. Thank you all for your thoughtful and thorough posts. I learned an awful lot. Thanks again. Paul

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Sadly my chemistry is connected to my wallet

[Itinerant1]

Nice reply and enjoyed the conversation. I would think that this thread should help some that might be on the fence for any kind of battery chemistry/ budget. 🙂

[BFL13]

" Not having wet/ agm batteries I don't know if this is exactly the way it would be for them under the same condition on a daily basis? Or would you have to charge without the loads till they went through the charge stages then turn on loads?"

IMO, essentially you are not doing anything different from lots of folks who do shallow cycles (70-99) mostly living off their solar. Eg, we did the same sort of thing when doing our five month seasonal off grid times from mid-April to end September up here. Very little gen time, no shortage of MW, kettle, TV time with 400-500AH of battery bank and enough solar.

The difference here is in the massive amount of solar, allowing for extensive use of 12v loads compared with most folks' usage. IMO the battery type has nothing to do with it. Any battery bank with 400-500AH would have worked the same. it is all about the solar wattage and being where it can be used.

However, AGMs or Wets would now be needing replacement at four years of that, whereas the Lis are still doing the job. They don't care about being undercharged when it gets dark too soon. They can do more cycles.

So it might work out that in another four years the Lis will need replacement, when the second set of AGMs would also be replaced.
Up to the individual RVer what that means for budgeting and convenience.

You can still get charging into the batteries while running loads. Have to watch that there is enough daytime to get the batts done up with the amps left over with the loads getting fed first. Having a battery monitor such as a Trimetric can help you see if things are working out during the day so you can choose your load times.

Eg, with a laptop you can run it on its own battery at night, and recharge it from solar during the day, which means the RV batts don't get run down as far at night.

[Itinerant1]

Under the circumstances of Covid-19 and the shelter in place plus having the abilty to work from wherever I may be boondocking as long as there is cell signal, it has given some extra time to do a full day of readings from bulk, absorb, float stages. This here is basically how the Lifepo4 battery system has been used since day 1 from spring, summer, fall. I already posted what winter time period or multiple days of rain/ overcast using in long periods of time in PSOCs. 4/13 will be the 4th year of fulltime use of the system on 24/7/365 over 1,205 days out of 1,449 days traveling/ boondocking (no hookups) throughout the western United States. 525+ accumulate full cycles on the battery bank with no more than a dozen times in a year of a 1-2 hour generator run time for a hold over charge from a eu2000i generator.

Granted there is 1,280w solar which certainly helps having the ability to have 40a +/- loads running the entire day plus using the microwave breakfast, lunch, dinner while still charging the Lifepo4 batteries taking the balance of produced power.

Not having wet/ agm batteries I don't know if this is exactly the way it would be for them under the same condition on a daily basis? Or would you have to charge without the loads till they went through the charge stages then turn on loads?



Solar production for this month.

[Itinerant1]

Mobilesport wrote:

Solar panels and AGM or solar panels with li ?? I have no clue but it looks like Iternerant1 is showing us some good info.
I'd be curious if there is some sort of fast charge advantage when using solar panels and li????

Here are some readings from Nov 2018. It's not only about how fast it can charge but how solar can help along the way, if need be throw a quick hold over charge.

The outside temps where in 32f +/- range. There was no supplemental heating going into the compartment other than what was generated by the IC, I added 2" foam board on the walls where I could. This also gives an idea of what my late fall to early spring PSOC living on the batteries are like when solar charging is shorter time period.



Solar production during that period. The morning SOC is read after there is power being produced by solar, evening is read when solar production has stopped and using batteries. Times are in military format.(0536 is 5:36am, 1730 is 5:30pm)




As 3 Tons said getting to full really isn't needed or go out of your way charging. 😉

[3_tons]

Mobilesport wrote:

Housted wrote:
In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
Biggest difference are:
1. saved 170# of weight
2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change :B

Housted

5. Your bank account is $2,550 lighter

Prices have come significantly down...With a little shopping (and applying a discount) got my 200amp/hr drop in, fused cylindrical cell with BMS for about $1,400...

So far I’ve been managing the charging just fine using the tried but true PD 9245 with charge wizard (in boost mode), or the 440w of solar... Recharges uber fast from either source, though I have no need whatsoever to exploit the full 100% SOC parameter ...

[Mobilesport]

Housted wrote:
In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
Biggest difference are:
1. saved 170# of weight
2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change :B

Housted

5. Your bank account is $2,550 lighter

[Mobilesport]

BFL wrote
"This is about building a set of factors to consider in the Li decision, rather than just going with an expensive fashion. Some good factors raised so far. Who's got some more?"

The thing that got me to buy Li was when I learned how fast I could charge the lifepo4 , fast charging is a really big deal to me because since I'm able to charge the battery so fast I can get by with a single $850 100 ah battery but keep in mind I use a generator and some people don't like generators.

The single 100ah Lifepo4 gives me reliable power when boondocking because even if I ever did get low on soc I fire up my genset and battery charger and in a very short time I can get the soc up no matter what the weather conditions are like and even at night time
.
This system allows me to have a very simple system with hardly any wires or components at all and also no solar panels

Imo if your boondocking with a generator lifepo4 is definitely the way to go or you'll end up buying multiple lead acid batteries over the years and end up paying more then the li battery.

If i had access to shore power I'd probably stick with lead acids for economical reasons , charging them correctly and getting there full life span.

Solar panels and AGM or solar panels with li ?? I have no clue but it looks like Iternerant1 is showing us some good info.
I'd be curious if there is some sort of fast charge advantage when using solar panels and li????

The other features of the Li didn't impress me much.
Lighter weight ?? It's not like I'm going to carry them around , the vehicle would carry the weight, I prefer lighter weight but not if I have to pay for it.

Better performance when running high amp appliances??
That didn't impress me much because I don't believe in running high amp appliances from batteries, I use the genset for that and save my battery soc.

Another thing I just thought about is ,, personally I don't charge from alternator/Invertor/charger but if somebody does the fast charging from li may be a huge help on keeping fuel costs down .

[BFL13]

"Number of cycles at a chosen SOC range might be a better way to compare them for intended use, haven't got into that"

Glad to see some math on that! Your RVer would need to estimate how many cycles he is likely to use over the expected years as one of his planning factors.

One of the Li brands said they use 70% loss of capacity for its cycle count. ISTR some AGMs or Wets use 50% loss for cycle count. So that would make the Li even better using 70 for both.

This is about building a set of factors to consider in the Li decision, rather than just going with an expensive fashion. Some good factors raised so far. Who's got some more?

[Itinerant1]

BFL13 wrote:

See the UB12100 110AH AGM for $210, at $1.9/AH and the
Espion360 120AH Li for $1,340 at $11.17/AH

So 11.17/1.9 = 5.88 times, not 4 times more per AH. But the point is usable AH.

Now let's put it in perspective some.

I'm going to use the info you posted for figuring #s but there are cheaper batteries to be had for this discussion.

I got my AGM info here for life cycle count, please correct me if wrong.
https://www.solar-electric.com/learning-center/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html/

"If"
AGM 110ah @ $210.00
500 cycles @ 80% DOD = 44,000ah, .004 cent per ah.
1000 cycles @ 50% DOD = 55,000ah, .003 cent per ah.

"If"
LFP 120ah @ $1,340
2,000 cycles @ 80% DOD = 192,000ah, .006 cent per ah.
3,000 cycles @ 70% DOD = 288,000ah, .004 cent per ah.

But now using 80% you need to replace the battery 4.36x ($915.60) or 50% compared to lfp 70% you'll need replacing 5.26x ($1,098.30). I'm sure during the time that AGM batteries are being replaced inflation might effect the price.

Now do you see the LFP is not 4x or 5x as much?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Some people buy 150K cars. Do they get to their destination faster?

But the real answer lies in the future. Fractions of pennies per kWh delivered during their life span.

[Housted]

In January of this year we went from 420 AHr of AGM to 300 AHr of LI.
Changed nothing else...Same solar (1050 watts) Same solar controller (80 Amp mppt).
Biggest difference are:
1. saved 170# of weight
2. voltage drop througout discaherge is much more level and higher.
3. Had to re-program the solar controller for LI
4. Now turn off the converter at home and let the solar do all the maintain.

I went with BattleBorn after seeing some youtube videos of their manufacturing processes and seeing one of their batteries disassembeled.

Based on my experience so far I am not sorry for the change :B

Housted

[BFL13]

On drop-ins looking here:

http://www.bestconverter.com/AGM-and-Lithium-Deep-Cycle-Batteries_c_283.html

See the UB12100 110AH AGM for $210, at $1.9/AH and the
Espion360 120AH Li for $1,340 at $11.17/AH

So 11.17/1.9 = 5.88 times, not 4 times more per AH. But the point is usable AH.

True about usable AH that there is more with Li, but how much more? There is a debate on what the range is for Li to do say 20-80s or to do 20-100s or whatever. A 20-80 is 60%. You can do 40-100s with AGMs.

Number of cycles at a chosen SOC range might be a better way to compare them for intended use, haven't got into that.

Noted about weights and how often needed to go to lower SOC down South in winter, and resulting gen times as a factor.

More people with stakes in Li for RVs should provide their thoughts as an aid to others who are considering Li.......