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Cummins12V98

on the road

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Posted: 02/25/20 08:45am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

" I will admit that the Ford will beat all three up that mountain at 20F. I just don't think it would do it at 80F."

That really should be part of the test running at Summer temps. I "THINK" the results may be different.


2015 RAM LongHorn 3500 Dually CrewCab 4X4 CUMMINS/AISIN RearAir 385HP/865TQ 4:10's
37,800# GCVWR "Towing Beast"

"HeavyWeight" B&W RVK3600

2016 MobileSuites 39TKSB3 highly "Elited" In the stable

2007.5 Mobile Suites 36 SB3 29,000# Combined SOLD

4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 02/25/20 09:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

"I don't think the testers understood the workings of the braking systems well enough to conduct a proper test"

I have said for years how to conduct the test using cruise control and lowering the desired speed to hold the desired speed and also locking in the desired gear. The RAM simply used the high RPM's at 35 to their advantage and I will say their programming must have improved since my 2015's tech because it held very nicely without adjusting cruise speed.


Your right, the first step is to think about what gear the transmission needs to be in to hold back the load. Secondly you want to set your desired speed close to redline in that gear. Then at redline the wheel brakes come on. Had they set the speed at 38 mph it wouldn't have applied the wheel brakes till 55 mph. Additionally the rear axle torque that the engine can deliver at max exhaust pressure, which I believe is 60 psi with the Cummins exhaust brake, in 3rd gear is only 67% of what it is in second.

I'm sure if they would have braked enough to get the Ford in 2nd they would have been very impressed with its ability to hold a steady speed.


2017 F350 SRW Platinum short box 4x4.
B&W Companion
2008 Citation Platinum XL 34.5

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 02/25/20 09:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

These trucks are smart but with some human intervention they can really perform!

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 02/25/20 12:41pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

So my takeaway from this is that Ford STILL doesn't test to SAE standards with a SAE witness.

As for if it matters....
A farmer who puts the fox in charge of the henhouse will soon run out of eggs.

Sorry fellas I disagree.
I have seen too many rules bent or broken in business when nobody is looking.
Something along these lines is in the news every day.
Prime example: Boeing was allowed to self validate a lot of stuff on a airplane that has been in the news a lot.... An airplane that had a couple of crashes killing hundreds of people. Then incriminating emails surfaced...

Sorry fellas, I disagree with you.


And why should they. The only people who even care are fanboys. I bet if GM didn't do the "certified witness" portion of the very same test then you would not care either. I don't think Ford is lying or has every lied about their power numbers. I say that not only because I know how horsepower actually works, but also knowing how much trouble they would get in if they did. I understand that you want to have this view simply because your favorite is "certified" so it makes you feel that you have a "one up" on the other brand, but the truth is nobody really cares. Going by your standards here, does that mean GM was lying in the past since it was not "certified"?
Umm, GM has been doing SAE certified testing for a looong time. I believe they may have been doing it this way ever since that standard became available....

As for the lying part... I won't go there. It generally starts as bending a rule here and there, a progresses over time.

I am sure that the Boeing employees were very well paid, yet they fell into the same trap. A lot of people died because of it.
People are people. When they are left to unsupervised by someone with more skin in the game..... Well things can get a little lax.



Huntindog
100% boondocking
2010 Palomino Sabre 30 BHDS
84 gal. Grey. 84 gal. Black
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2020 Silverado High Country CC DA 4X4 Big Dually.



ShinerBock

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Posted: 02/25/20 01:07pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

Umm, GM has been doing SAE certified testing for a looong time. I believe they may have been doing it this way ever since that standard became available....

As for the lying part... I won't go there. It generally starts as bending a rule here and there, a progresses over time.

I am sure that the Boeing employees were very well paid, yet they fell into the same trap. A lot of people died because of it.
People are people. When they are left to unsupervised by someone with more skin in the game..... Well things can get a little lax.


GM may have been doing the "certified" testing on some of their gasoline engines since 2006, but not their diesel engine. In fact, I am looking at the most up to date list right now and the only Duramax diesel that is on the list is the LML. None of the other Duramax versions are on the certified list. So does this mean GM is lying too since even the current L5P is not "certified" or are you now going to back track and say it doesn't matter now?

SAE J1349® and SAE J1995® Certified Power Listings

HTElectrical

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Posted: 02/26/20 12:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

An intercooler uses water to cool the charge air.


Not True!!!!!!!! There are 2 types.

An air to air intercooler is an intercooler that uses air to cool air. Meaning the exchange of heat that occurs is between the air that you have charged in your charge pipes and the air that is flowing through the intercooler. Air to Air intercoolers are only as efficient as the ambient airflow (air temperature outside) that they see. Placement of these types of intercoolers is therefore very important in the efficiency of this type of intercooler.


A Water to Air Intercooler is one where the exchange of heat occurs between water and air. Water is pumped through the intercooler so that the heat from your charge pipes is transferred to the water. This type of set-up can be mounted anywhere, and just needs to have water plumbed to it. Because of its requirement for the flow of water, this type of intercooler requires a water pump, a reservoir, and a heat exchanger for the water mounted somewhere that will receive good airflow.

* This post was edited 02/26/20 12:15am by HTElectrical *


2007 Duramax, Cognito 7"-9" Lift,


Huntindog

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Posted: 02/26/20 01:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

HTElectrical wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

An intercooler uses water to cool the charge air.


Not True!!!!!!!! There are 2 types.

An air to air intercooler is an intercooler that uses air to cool air. Meaning the exchange of heat that occurs is between the air that you have charged in your charge pipes and the air that is flowing through the intercooler. Air to Air intercoolers are only as efficient as the ambient airflow (air temperature outside) that they see. Placement of these types of intercoolers is therefore very important in the efficiency of this type of intercooler.


A Water to Air Intercooler is one where the exchange of heat occurs between water and air. Water is pumped through the intercooler so that the heat from your charge pipes is transferred to the water. This type of set-up can be mounted anywhere, and just needs to have water plumbed to it. Because of its requirement for the flow of water, this type of intercooler requires a water pump, a reservoir, and a heat exchanger for the water mounted somewhere that will receive good airflow.
Unless i am missing something, BOTH type are limited to the temp. of the air.

Huntindog

Phoenix AZ

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Posted: 02/26/20 01:40am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Umm, GM has been doing SAE certified testing for a looong time. I believe they may have been doing it this way ever since that standard became available....

As for the lying part... I won't go there. It generally starts as bending a rule here and there, a progresses over time.

I am sure that the Boeing employees were very well paid, yet they fell into the same trap. A lot of people died because of it.
People are people. When they are left to unsupervised by someone with more skin in the game..... Well things can get a little lax.


GM may have been doing the "certified" testing on some of their gasoline engines since 2006, but not their diesel engine. In fact, I am looking at the most up to date list right now and the only Duramax diesel that is on the list is the LML. None of the other Duramax versions are on the certified list. So does this mean GM is lying too since even the current L5P is not "certified" or are you now going to back track and say it doesn't matter now?

SAE J1349® and SAE J1995® Certified Power Listings
This is one of many sites that says otherwise..... It would be illegal for GM to make this claim if it were not true.Here is one site that says otherwise

MikeRP

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Posted: 02/26/20 03:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

blofgren wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

But But RAM was the safest of all with ZERO brake applications. Not really anything more important.

Also had had a good time climbing with nice cool temps and guess what the fan NEVER came on.


I totally agree.

And if it wasn't for that silly CP4 fuel pump that is now bolted on to it, it is the truck that will do it reliably for many years to come.


I can certainly see a person buying a Ram for the air suspension or because they prefer the interior of the truck and I can even understand some people liking the idea that they have a Cummins under the hood. It is even possible that the Cummins has a slightly better exhaust brake .... As far as this downhill braking test demonstrating anything I don't think the testers understood the workings of the braking systems well enough to conduct a proper test:

I posted this comment on another thread and although I realize that I could be wrong I feel confident that I have come to a proper understanding of how these braking systems work:

The TFL guys said they had the Ford EB set to auto which is the best setting on the Ford for the downhill test they were doing. However there is more to it than picking a speed to hold the load at and measuring brake applications. For instance, The maximum reverse HP an engine can create occurs at maximum exhaust back pressure and engine redline. So 35 mph was an excellent speed for the Cummins to function at. It put the transmission in a low enough gear to get high torque to the rear axle and had the engine running very close to redline .... At the 4:00 and 6:00 minute marks in the video you can see the EB gauge all of a sudden display 236 reverse HP when the engine reaches redline. I believe the gauge is displaying this value while the computer applies the wheel brakes i order to prevent the engine from over revving. You can see that while the EB gauge displays a value, the speed of the truck slows from 37 mph to 35 and then the wheel brakes are released.

If they had chosen 42 mph as the speed they wanted the truck to hold to the Ram would have had a disadvantage because the truck would have shifted to 3rd gear and the engine would have dropped to about 2400 rpm. At 2400 rpm the engine would have been producing considerably less reverse HP, third gear would have put much less torque to the rear axle and Mr. Truck would have been applying the brakes prior to the engine reaching redline.

I didn't watch the Ford downhill portion again but I suspect they tried to go 35 mph with it as well. The Problem with that is 35 mph puts the Powerstroke in 3rd gear at 2800 rpm and in order to get maximum performance out of the Powerstroke EB they would have run the truck in 3rd gear at about 3400 rpm where it would have been travelling about 42 mph. And better still they could have slowed the Ford to to get it to drop into 2nd gear and ran at 32 mph and 3500 rpm. Had the Ford been running at a higher rpm the computer would have been applying the brakes when the engine rpm reached redline. (I'm not sure what rpm the 2020 Powerstroke needs to reach before the computer applies the brakes .... my '17 redlines at 3600 but I think the 2020 might be even higher)

I think the computer applies the wheel brakes at engine red line, so the Ram computer was performing multiple wheel brake applications where as it was Mr Truck applying the Ford wheel brakes prior to engine red line.


A tester really has to understand the workings of these trucks well to perform tests that demonstrate the full potential of each truck.


What is the evidence that the Ram is using the brakes on full auto? The Ram will not only take the input from the cruise control speed but uses the exhaust brake to the max and also transmission braking w the Aisin. I have never experienced this on my Ram.

I believe it was a major achievement to go down the IKE w zero brake applications and this was understated.

Similarly I think if TFL would have used the cruise on the way up set to 55 mph, that the engine instead of loafing along at 2200 rpm would have downshifted and worked to get to redline which wouldn’t have been 55 but would have got up the hill quicker.

I’m not saying it would have beat the Ford up the hill.

This is cat and mouse w the manufacturers. I still think Ram has the advantage since this 6.7 Cummins is used in many different applications. That Cummins programmed right would have made the bill in the same time as the Ford in this winter test.”, there is no doubt t in my mind.

Question is how would they all do at 95 degrees in the summer? You have to wonder on the way down would an engine go into limp mode because of excess heat., which could be a disaster. I think we saw that on Ford’s 3.0L diesel test last year. That would be bad towing 30,000 down the hill with one of these bigger diesels.

I still think Tfl ought to run the Ram up the hill using cruise. However, another thought, what % of these truck ls will tow 30,000 lbs? Certainly for the RVers not many and any one of these trucks we’d all be proud to own. They are all fantasy trucks 10 years ago and all are amazing to watch how three manufacturers get to the near same result 3 different ways.

Peace

ShinerBock

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Posted: 02/26/20 04:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Huntindog wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Huntindog wrote:

Umm, GM has been doing SAE certified testing for a looong time. I believe they may have been doing it this way ever since that standard became available....

As for the lying part... I won't go there. It generally starts as bending a rule here and there, a progresses over time.

I am sure that the Boeing employees were very well paid, yet they fell into the same trap. A lot of people died because of it.
People are people. When they are left to unsupervised by someone with more skin in the game..... Well things can get a little lax.


GM may have been doing the "certified" testing on some of their gasoline engines since 2006, but not their diesel engine. In fact, I am looking at the most up to date list right now and the only Duramax diesel that is on the list is the LML. None of the other Duramax versions are on the certified list. So does this mean GM is lying too since even the current L5P is not "certified" or are you now going to back track and say it doesn't matter now?

SAE J1349® and SAE J1995® Certified Power Listings
This is one of many sites that says otherwise..... It would be illegal for GM to make this claim if it were not true.Here is one site that says otherwise


It doesn't matter what GM or anyone other than SAE says. If it isn't on the SAE list, then it isn't certified, period. It is illegal for a manufacturer to post a false power number "certified" or not.

Also, GM can still say they are SAE certified if they are using the SAE standards just like everyone else. However, they cannot say they are “Certified to SAE J1349” or “Certified to SAE J1995” unless they go through the J2723 process. They are not dictating which SAE certification they are pertaining to therefore it isn't illegal. Misleading, but not illegal.

Engine Power Test Code - Engine Power and Torque Certification

* This post was edited 02/26/20 06:25am by ShinerBock *

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