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 > 2019–20 CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC POSTINGS

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dturm

Lake County, IN

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Posted: 11/16/20 10:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Challenge testing in humans presents a serious medical ethics conundrum. Society has performed these tests, often without the participants knowledge. Think Mengele, soldiers exposed to nuclear tests and agent orange and disabled people and people of color Hideous truth of Testing

There have been challenge tests performed on animals (primates) in previous phases of testing this Coronavirus vaccine. That is frowned upon by some, but in truth these types of advancement could not be achieved without some animal testing.

Consider a challenge test where 100 people are given a placebo and then challenged with the live virus. Given the current mortality rate if all get COVID, we would expect 2-4 participants to die. Is that acceptable?

If we can get reasonable answers by other means without the risk it may not be justified.


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pianotuna

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Posted: 11/16/20 11:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Hi,

Moderna is claiming early results of 94.5%. I think this is all about folks making money on the stock exchange. Unethical comes to mine.


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silversand

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Posted: 11/16/20 11:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dturm wrote:

Consider a challenge test where 100 people are given a placebo and then challenged with the live virus. Given the current mortality rate if all get COVID, we would expect 2-4 participants to die. Is that acceptable?


....IMO, it is acceptable. This, in light of a really un-proven release of 8 (?) million doses over the next few weeks (8 weeks?)....what if 2000 recipients die? Or, 400?

In our historical context (2020), full informed consent will be rigorously adhered to. Sure, citizens were exposed to nuclear fallout in early testing, however, that and many other uninformed consent testing (MK-Ultra experiments on hundreds of Montrealers at the Allen Memorial Institute, McGill University for close to 20 years in '50s and '60s) are well known and studied.


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dturm

Lake County, IN

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Posted: 11/16/20 12:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The only thing I would dispute is that the vaccine is un-proven. We are in a discussion that is pretty far from my area of expertise, but drug trials that have progressed through phase 3 successfully are far from un-proven. Obviously not proven to the degree that you and many others feel is necessary, but if they are approved (without political interference or without only financial considerations) I'd feel comfortable being vaccinated.

As far as financial benefits these companies will get, many started production before phase 3 trials were started let alone completed. There was a pretty big risk financially for them to do this. Some of the companies were compensated for this risk in part by various governments. They do stand to make money. I think far more beneficial in the long run will be the techniques they have developed to find and manufacture vaccines in the future. The basic fundamental of RNA vaccines will be proven and open a huge future opportunity to eliminate a host of diseases. Perhaps a quantum leap for humanity.

* This post was edited 11/16/20 12:23pm by dturm *

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 11/16/20 12:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

Moderna is claiming early results of 94.5%. I think this is all about folks making money on the stock exchange. Unethical comes to mine.
would you prefer successful SARS-CoV-2 vaccine manufacturers loose money?
I’d rather they make money in the stock exchange than on profits from the sales of doses (high price for a dose).

Btw, the US government decided when data could be reviewed (by independent government experts) and then provided to the vaccine manufacturer.

* This post was last edited 11/16/20 01:02pm by BCSnob *   View edit history

pianotuna

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Posted: 11/16/20 01:11pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob,

I don't mind them making money--but when they deliberately try to manipulate stock prices to their favor I'm definitely NOT on board.

Pfizer board members sold quite a bit of stock.

Is it normal to release interim results? (I have no idea).

I'm from Canada which only has the 2nd highest drug costs in the world.

There is some chance of a universal pharmacare program in Canada. I say "bring it on".

BCSnob

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Posted: 11/16/20 01:21pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Stock prices are one way for smaller pharmaceutical companies to entice additional outside financing.

I think the interim results on the phase 3 studies of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are atypical; but are in line with the emergency use authorizations being given for treatments and tests. I suspect it was the FDA giving into outside forces wanting to have promising results released prior to completion of the full study. The world wants to get good news of potential/future ways out of our current situation.

Upon checking, interim data assessment is now more commonly used in clinical trials.

FWIW Moderna's phase III trial (NCT04470427) is scheduled to end Oct 27, 2022; do you want to wait until then?

The end date for Pfizer’s phase 1/2/3 vaccine trial (NCT04368728) is Dec 11, 2022.

* This post was last edited 11/16/20 02:10pm by BCSnob *   View edit history

qtla9111

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Posted: 11/16/20 04:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Even after the second vaccination, there is a waiting period of a few weeks before immunity can kick in. So for a long period after vaccines are available we will continue to wear masks. That should help to further reduce the number of deaths of those where the vaccine is not fully effective. Right?


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silversand

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Posted: 11/17/20 05:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

gtla9111 wrote:

Even after the second vaccination, there is a waiting period of a few weeks before immunity can kick in. So for a long period after vaccines are available we will continue to wear masks. That should help to further reduce the number of deaths of those where the vaccine is not fully effective. Right?


Chris....if you can, have a look at PBS News Hour last evening 6:40 PM EST, entitled, "Head of NIH urges Americans to take precautions while awaiting vaccine", Dr Francis Collins, the NIH head, delves into the Emeregency vaccine verification procedure (and, the intense independent review that goes into any vaccine before it is "early released" by the Federal review board). He is imploring Americans to please use masking and social distancing, because though 2 vaccine candidates look promising, no vaccine will be widely-deployed before at least April across through September next year: here-->

silversand

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Posted: 11/17/20 06:41am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

FWIW Moderna's phase III trial (NCT04470427) is scheduled to end Oct 27, 2022; do you want to wait until then?


....actually, IMO, any of the "promising" vaccines can go wrong with such a short trial. No one has any idea if these vaccines will give immunity for more than a month or two, for starters. So, the first injection to 2nd injection span is 2 weeks....who will actually go out and get the 2nd injection?? Perhaps just 40 ~ 50% of the recipients (based on 2-part vaccine history)? Even worse, what if it takes 2 weeks + 7 days to build maximum immunity....? What if certain age cohorts don't build immunity for more than 3 weeks? 8 weeks? What if taking heart medication (and 2 or 3 dozen other medications) deactivates the vaccine, and doesn't work at all? Many, many questions need to be answered. That's why 3 to 8 years is needed to evaluate a vaccine.

Just for the record, I am definitely not an anti-vaxer.

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