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 > 2020 PSD owner compares it to his 2019 PSD towing 18K

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stsmark

Northern CA

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Posted: 04/10/20 12:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How did a change in lifter type result in a exponential increase in moving parts? I think another factor in the change to the CP4 is lower power needed to drive it.

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/10/20 06:59am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

Here's some fuel economy data on the '19 compared to the '20 F250 Super Duty. Also I added the Ram 2500 fuel economy comparison for good measure.


Also maybe JohnDeereFarmer will chime in. He reported his new 2020 6.7PSD is making 1.5-2 mpg better than his previous 6.7PSD which is pretty much in line that many are reporting.


I would not count on those being realistic until around 50 people or so reporting in for a year or 500k miles tracked. They will fluctuate wildly up or down until then. At least that is my experience with the side and the five new vehicles I have tracked on there. The first several months were no where near what I and everyone else on the forums where getting until there were around 50 people or 500k miles tracked.


I agree more data points becomes more statistically significant but the trends continue and the data points are pointing that the new Power Strokes make better fuel economy compared to the second gen motors and even the latest cummins engine (Remember me posting about early fuel economy reports from early last year!).

Speaking of last year you were going to put a reminder on your calendar to review diesel prices in that you were predicting prices were going to go up with the Ship industry going to Ultra Low Sulphur diesel. I predicted no change. Now excluding the current mess, earlier this year diesel fuel prices showed.... Well you know!


When I first got my 2014 in October 14, its stated that the Ram got low 13s for a good 6 months to a year which I was getting between 15 and 15.5 on stock tires. It was n't until around 50 trucks were being recording until it jumped up to its average of 15.5 which is more accurate. When I got my old 335d, it stated that everyone was getting about 2 mpg more than I was getting with only about 10 vehicles being tracked and as with my Ram it began to settle down to realistic numbers with more vehicles being tracked. Same thing with my current 328d. This is why I take these numbers with a grain of salt until there are more vehicles being tracked or more miles on them.

In regards to diesel fuel prices. I said they will go up if we continue to use the same amount of fuel from shipping. However, due to the tariff war between the US and China, shipping reduced dramatically in 2019 and continue to decrease with the coronavirus.

* This post was last edited 04/10/20 08:41am by ShinerBock *   View edit history

4x4ord

Alberta

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Posted: 04/10/20 12:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Cummins12V98 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Ford requires the transmission fluid be changed every 150,000 miles. How often is the fluid to be changed in the Aisin?


Sorry for the Hi-Jack couldn't find the thread where we were discussing this !!!

We had been talking RPM's and actual speed in 6th at 70. I know you said I should be different but here is "my proof". All pics taken one right after the other.

Tried to get pics at perfect angle but the needles are right on the mark.


[image]
[image]

[image]


I don't remember exactly what I said on the other thread but it seems to me that I might have told you that if your tac and speedo are right your tires are low on air or bald and need replacing. With 235/80 r 17 tires and 4.10 gears your engine will be running very close to 1910 rpm at 70 mph. It looks like your speedo and gps agree ... I'm sure your tires aren't worn out, so my guess is that your tac is off.


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2001400ex

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Posted: 04/10/20 01:00pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:

4x4ord wrote:

Ford requires the transmission fluid be changed every 150,000 miles. How often is the fluid to be changed in the Aisin?


Sorry for the Hi-Jack couldn't find the thread where we were discussing this !!!

We had been talking RPM's and actual speed in 6th at 70. I know you said I should be different but here is "my proof". All pics taken one right after the other.

Tried to get pics at perfect angle but the needles are right on the mark.


[image]
[image]

[image]


I don't remember exactly what I said on the other thread but it seems to me that I might have told you that if your tac and speedo are right your tires are low on air or bald and need replacing. With 235/80 r 17 tires and 4.10 gears your engine will be running very close to 1910 rpm at 70 mph. It looks like your speedo and gps agree ... I'm sure your tires aren't worn out, so my guess is that your tac is off.


Correct me if I'm wrong. But are you arguing over 90 RPMs?


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/10/20 01:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4x4ord wrote:



I don't remember exactly what I said on the other thread but it seems to me that I might have told you that if your tac and speedo are right your tires are low on air or bald and need replacing. With 235/80 r 17 tires and 4.10 gears your engine will be running very close to 1910 rpm at 70 mph. It looks like your speedo and gps agree ... I'm sure your tires aren't worn out, so my guess is that your tac is off.


In my experience, most tachs aren't dead on. They are generally off by 50 rpm or so versus my app that is reading from the ECM in just about every vehicle I have owned from my Ram to my old Fords. As with speedo's or most anything manufactured, they are on a bell curve and can be off +/- a few percent.

* This post was edited 04/10/20 03:33pm by ShinerBock *

Cummins12V98

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Posted: 04/10/20 03:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

4X thanks for the reply.

We are NOT arguing. We have discussed RPM’s and I finally was able to show him what my truck shows and my speedo is dead on with gps.

Tires are at 1/4” tread depth and rear tire pressure is 68 now because I WAS going to tow but FrontSight was canceled so no tow for a while. Hardly driving so no use dropping to 35.


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FishOnOne

The Great State of Texas

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Posted: 04/10/20 08:44pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

blofgren wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

They would rather be reliable than a hot rod.


I think we know better than that since Cummins in the Ram trucks has been on a constant battle in the power war. And from a total engine and emissions system the the cummins is not the most reliable and now that Cummins adopted the CP4.2 pump, hydraulic lifters, and I'm now hearing the 19-20 cummins trucks are using oil it's reliability will not improve.


Not Cummins. Their horsepower numbers have hardly gone up in the last ten years. Their torque has, but you can reliably make that while still being conservative. I know Ram would like Cummins to be more aggressive with their power numbers which they easily can with a more aggressive turbo and tuning given that it has the largest displacement of all three, but this is not the route the usually take.

Although the mention of the new CP4.2 plays into what I am saying. Ford adopted the CP4 just about as soon as it was out in order to increase power numbers. Cummins waited a while for all the problems to be fixed. Also, the use of the CP4 was more of a requirement due to new NOx limits rather than wanting to use it. The CP3 does not have enough pressure to do so. Hydraulic lifters have become more reliable because you don't have to do valve lash adjustments every 150k.

This, I feel, is the difference between Cummins and Ford. Ford will use as much new tech available to be the "best in class" (so will Ram) and fix things as they go while Cummins waits for all of the kinks to be worked out before putting it on their engine(aside from emissions stuff which was forced by the EPA). This is why the PSD changed so much in the last decade with things such as the turbo, intercooler coolant routing, pistons, and so on while the Cummins has remained mostly the same through the past decade. Not wrong, just different ideologies in what they think is important. To some, Ike times matter, to others, having reliable parts and not being a guinea pig to new tech does.

I am already hearing things about the new 2020 trucks in our fleet and from our 9 dealerships, but that is to be expected with any new design.


Very well said. When I was looking to get out of my 2003 F-350 6.0L diesel in 2014 after way too many issues, it was becoming apparent that the Ford 6.7L was experiencing some concerning issues. As much as I was a die-hard Ford guy, I went and looked at some Ram/Cummins and ended up buying the truck in my signature, which my wife's family said I should have done years ago. Now that I have had the truck for some time, I have to agree. [emoticon] I really don't care about being to the top of the hill first, but I do care about reliability which Cummins has provided for many years now. The 2020 Powerstrokes are definitely impressive, but I'll be even more impressed when they reach 3-400k miles with minimal repairs......


You do realize that the CP4.2 in the Cummins is overdriven compared to the Ford. So the CP4.2 in the Cummins turns at a higher RPM so we'll see how that turns out.


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ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/11/20 08:16am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:

blofgren wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

They would rather be reliable than a hot rod.


I think we know better than that since Cummins in the Ram trucks has been on a constant battle in the power war. And from a total engine and emissions system the the cummins is not the most reliable and now that Cummins adopted the CP4.2 pump, hydraulic lifters, and I'm now hearing the 19-20 cummins trucks are using oil it's reliability will not improve.


Not Cummins. Their horsepower numbers have hardly gone up in the last ten years. Their torque has, but you can reliably make that while still being conservative. I know Ram would like Cummins to be more aggressive with their power numbers which they easily can with a more aggressive turbo and tuning given that it has the largest displacement of all three, but this is not the route the usually take.

Although the mention of the new CP4.2 plays into what I am saying. Ford adopted the CP4 just about as soon as it was out in order to increase power numbers. Cummins waited a while for all the problems to be fixed. Also, the use of the CP4 was more of a requirement due to new NOx limits rather than wanting to use it. The CP3 does not have enough pressure to do so. Hydraulic lifters have become more reliable because you don't have to do valve lash adjustments every 150k.

This, I feel, is the difference between Cummins and Ford. Ford will use as much new tech available to be the "best in class" (so will Ram) and fix things as they go while Cummins waits for all of the kinks to be worked out before putting it on their engine(aside from emissions stuff which was forced by the EPA). This is why the PSD changed so much in the last decade with things such as the turbo, intercooler coolant routing, pistons, and so on while the Cummins has remained mostly the same through the past decade. Not wrong, just different ideologies in what they think is important. To some, Ike times matter, to others, having reliable parts and not being a guinea pig to new tech does.

I am already hearing things about the new 2020 trucks in our fleet and from our 9 dealerships, but that is to be expected with any new design.


Very well said. When I was looking to get out of my 2003 F-350 6.0L diesel in 2014 after way too many issues, it was becoming apparent that the Ford 6.7L was experiencing some concerning issues. As much as I was a die-hard Ford guy, I went and looked at some Ram/Cummins and ended up buying the truck in my signature, which my wife's family said I should have done years ago. Now that I have had the truck for some time, I have to agree. [emoticon] I really don't care about being to the top of the hill first, but I do care about reliability which Cummins has provided for many years now. The 2020 Powerstrokes are definitely impressive, but I'll be even more impressed when they reach 3-400k miles with minimal repairs......


You do realize that the CP4.2 in the Cummins is overdriven compared to the Ford. So the CP4.2 in the Cummins turns at a higher RPM so we'll see how that turns out.


Actually this is false. The new CP4 has an updated cam that allows it to pump up to 39,000 psi. Cummins is only using it to 29,000 psi while still using solenoid electric injectors. Ford on the other hand is using it up to 36,000 psi along with piezoelectric injectors which is one reason why they are able to hit such high power numbers. Cummins can easily crank up the CP4 they are using to max output to increase their power numbers, but as I said above, that is not their focus.

BTW, CP4.2 does not mean it is a second generation. It just means that it has two pumps. The single pump version like what is on me diesel car is a CP4.1. The technical term for the new CP4 is CP4-27 as in 2,700 bar or 39,000 psi which is its max output.

FishOnOne

The Great State of Texas

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Posted: 04/11/20 10:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

blofgren wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

FishOnOne wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

They would rather be reliable than a hot rod.


I think we know better than that since Cummins in the Ram trucks has been on a constant battle in the power war. And from a total engine and emissions system the the cummins is not the most reliable and now that Cummins adopted the CP4.2 pump, hydraulic lifters, and I'm now hearing the 19-20 cummins trucks are using oil it's reliability will not improve.


Not Cummins. Their horsepower numbers have hardly gone up in the last ten years. Their torque has, but you can reliably make that while still being conservative. I know Ram would like Cummins to be more aggressive with their power numbers which they easily can with a more aggressive turbo and tuning given that it has the largest displacement of all three, but this is not the route the usually take.

Although the mention of the new CP4.2 plays into what I am saying. Ford adopted the CP4 just about as soon as it was out in order to increase power numbers. Cummins waited a while for all the problems to be fixed. Also, the use of the CP4 was more of a requirement due to new NOx limits rather than wanting to use it. The CP3 does not have enough pressure to do so. Hydraulic lifters have become more reliable because you don't have to do valve lash adjustments every 150k.

This, I feel, is the difference between Cummins and Ford. Ford will use as much new tech available to be the "best in class" (so will Ram) and fix things as they go while Cummins waits for all of the kinks to be worked out before putting it on their engine(aside from emissions stuff which was forced by the EPA). This is why the PSD changed so much in the last decade with things such as the turbo, intercooler coolant routing, pistons, and so on while the Cummins has remained mostly the same through the past decade. Not wrong, just different ideologies in what they think is important. To some, Ike times matter, to others, having reliable parts and not being a guinea pig to new tech does.

I am already hearing things about the new 2020 trucks in our fleet and from our 9 dealerships, but that is to be expected with any new design.


Very well said. When I was looking to get out of my 2003 F-350 6.0L diesel in 2014 after way too many issues, it was becoming apparent that the Ford 6.7L was experiencing some concerning issues. As much as I was a die-hard Ford guy, I went and looked at some Ram/Cummins and ended up buying the truck in my signature, which my wife's family said I should have done years ago. Now that I have had the truck for some time, I have to agree. [emoticon] I really don't care about being to the top of the hill first, but I do care about reliability which Cummins has provided for many years now. The 2020 Powerstrokes are definitely impressive, but I'll be even more impressed when they reach 3-400k miles with minimal repairs......


You do realize that the CP4.2 in the Cummins is overdriven compared to the Ford. So the CP4.2 in the Cummins turns at a higher RPM so we'll see how that turns out.


Actually this is false. The new CP4 has an updated cam that allows it to pump up to 39,000 psi. Cummins is only using it to 29,000 psi while still using solenoid electric injectors. Ford on the other hand is using it up to 36,000 psi along with piezoelectric injectors which is one reason why they are able to hit such high power numbers. Cummins can easily crank up the CP4 they are using to max output to increase their power numbers, but as I said above, that is not their focus.

BTW, CP4.2 does not mean it is a second generation. It just means that it has two pumps. The single pump version like what is on me diesel car is a CP4.1. The technical term for the new CP4 is CP4-27 as in 2,700 bar or 39,000 psi which is its max output.


I never said the CP4.2 is a second generation pump.

Also for the Cummins setup now with a overdriven CP4.2 go look at the number of teeth on a CP3 setup vs a CP4.2 setup. The CP4.2 is now being turned alot faster than a CP3 and even faster than the Ford setup. By turning the CP4.2 even faster I can't imagine that's a good thing.

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/11/20 10:22am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FishOnOne wrote:



I never said the CP4.2 is a second generation pump.

Also for the Cummins setup now with a overdriven CP4.2 go look at the number of teeth on a CP3 setup vs a CP4.2 setup. The CP4.2 is now being turned alot faster than a CP3 and even faster than the Ford setup. By turning the CP4.2 even faster I can't imagine that's a good thing.


This is news to me and I would have to verify. What rpm is the Ford pump running versus the Cummins?

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