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ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/09/20 08:08am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

Yosemite Sam1 wrote:

My wish list is modest, a 240v electrical connection in public campsites.


Works great when there are 3 EVs in a 200 site park and you can have it now by getting a 50amp site.

But for wide scale EV usage...If you've ever been to a park on a hot summer weekend when everyone is running their air/con, you know that power goes out regularly.

Your average draw for air/con is usually around 11-12amp (single air/con on 30amp) or 22-24amp (dual air/con on 50amp sites).

Now imagine adding in 100 sites with EVs pulling the max amperage to charge up big battery packs regardless of the weather and run the numbers...and don't tell us how you can reduce the draw by setting it lower...you and I both know people will use as much as they can get away with until there are outages and even then, if they want to travel the next day, they will continue to bump up against those limits causing outages.

One of the parks we stay at has trouble on peak summer weekends (we bring our generator to account for this). Owner found out it was going to be upwards of $50k to upgrade his power feed to fix the problem. This didn't include rewiring the entire camp just the feed from the road to his main distribution panel. To add in EV charging at most sites, you would have to get an even bigger feed upgrade at even higher price. I'm betting you wouldn't be the first to step up and pay for it when most don't need it.


Meh. People find problems where there aren’t energy. People driving EV’s are not evil. They just like the driving experience, performance, convenience. Most will obey the rules just like most people do. The campground director can simply say charging at designated sites only etc. Not a big deal now, won’t be then.


He actually has a logical point. It is not a big deal now because there are so few out there. But imagine half of the people in a 100 site park needing to charge for the night. They would either have to wait their turn and switch out during the night or upgrade the camp wiring along with the utility wiring from the power plant to the camp for the amount of energy required. It may also require additional substations depending on how far it is to push that much electricity to places far from the power plant.

Reisender

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Posted: 04/09/20 09:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

Yosemite Sam1 wrote:

My wish list is modest, a 240v electrical connection in public campsites.


Works great when there are 3 EVs in a 200 site park and you can have it now by getting a 50amp site.

But for wide scale EV usage...If you've ever been to a park on a hot summer weekend when everyone is running their air/con, you know that power goes out regularly.

Your average draw for air/con is usually around 11-12amp (single air/con on 30amp) or 22-24amp (dual air/con on 50amp sites).

Now imagine adding in 100 sites with EVs pulling the max amperage to charge up big battery packs regardless of the weather and run the numbers...and don't tell us how you can reduce the draw by setting it lower...you and I both know people will use as much as they can get away with until there are outages and even then, if they want to travel the next day, they will continue to bump up against those limits causing outages.

One of the parks we stay at has trouble on peak summer weekends (we bring our generator to account for this). Owner found out it was going to be upwards of $50k to upgrade his power feed to fix the problem. This didn't include rewiring the entire camp just the feed from the road to his main distribution panel. To add in EV charging at most sites, you would have to get an even bigger feed upgrade at even higher price. I'm betting you wouldn't be the first to step up and pay for it when most don't need it.


Meh. People find problems where there aren’t energy. People driving EV’s are not evil. They just like the driving experience, performance, convenience. Most will obey the rules just like most people do. The campground director can simply say charging at designated sites only etc. Not a big deal now, won’t be then.


He actually has a logical point. It is not a big deal now because there are so few out there. But imagine half of the people in a 100 site park needing to charge for the night. They would either have to wait their turn and switch out during the night or upgrade the camp wiring along with the utility wiring from the power plant to the camp for the amount of energy required. It may also require additional substations depending on how far it is to push that much electricity to places far from the power plant.


It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772. We were invited to use it for the hour or so we were there visiting. Like 40 km from our house. Never knew it was there. [emoticon] It is on the map though.

[image]

[image]

* This post was edited 04/09/20 09:09am by Reisender *

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/09/20 09:14am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:



It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.


But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.

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Posted: 04/09/20 09:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:



It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.


But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.


Agreed, that is why I say infrastructure is not static. It is constantly evolving. Take the Clipper creek unit in my pictures. That campground made a decision to spend probably a few grand on putting that unit in. At this point I don't think it draws a lot of clientele but who knows in the future. They have a start though. That park is kind of a summer Vacation park with lots of permanents on leased lots. My guess is there are a bunch of owners/leasers with EV's (common in this area) and they got together and put it in. Just a guess. Surprisingly it is not a pay unit. Essentially free. That is the advantage of going with a company like chargepoint. They do all the work and just cut you in on the profits.

* This post was edited 04/09/20 09:53am by Reisender *

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Posted: 04/09/20 09:51am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

This is a Chargepoint dual 32 amp head at one of the strip malls near us. Although this one is free and is used as a loss leader to get people to their restaurants etc (works for us) many of the chargepoint sites are pay per use with a credit card or prepaid RFID card. Ideal for places where you will be for a few hours like theaters, outlet malls etc. Would work well for campgrounds once the various companies like Rivian Ford and Tesla start building EV trucks. Start with a couple, add as required. They are not crazy expensive but about three times what you pay at home. We occasionally use these and have a prepaid RFID card but usually find ourselves at the ones that are used as a loss leader for restaurants, some malls etc. Handy when away from your home area or on road trips. Most of the time we just charge at home. Cheap.

[image]

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/09/20 10:00am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:



It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.


But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.


Agreed, that is why I say infrastructure is not static. It is constantly evolving. Take the Clipper creek unit in my pictures. That company made a decision to spend probably a few grand on putting that unit in. At this point I don't think it draws a lot of clientele but who knows in the future. They have a start though. That park is kind of a summer Vacation park with lots of permanents on leased lots. My guess is there are a bunch of owners/leasers with EV's (common in this area) and they got together and put it in. Just a guess. Surprisingly it is not a pay unit. Essentially free. That is the advantage of going with a company like chargepoint. They do all the work and just cut you in on the profits.


You are missing my point. I am not talking about the people putting in the chargers needing to upgrade their infrastructure. I am talking about the utility company that sends the power to that charger. A few or maybe even a dozen chargers are fine especially when there are so few EV's out their. However, adding more chargers and and more people using them will require more power, larger lines to send that power, and more substations to keep up the volume. Things that will cost a lot of money and that over 80% of the different utility companies are even ready for and will not be ready for in the next 20 or 30 years according to the smart electric power alliance.

My brother works for City Public Service in San Antonio in underground utilities. His main job is adding new lines or upgrading existing lines to larger ones due to demand along with repairing old lines in the underground areas downtown. They can't even keep up with the demand of adding new or upgraded lines for new buildings and the added pollution let alone alone what would happen if hundreds of chargers were added.

A few here and there are fine, but hundreds were require a major overhaul of their downtown grid. They have enough power due to their coal plants, wind mills, solar, and nuclear plants, but the infrastructure to meet the demand is way behind and they don't have the money or manpower to meet it even in the coming decades due to barely being able to keep up now. This would require additional funding and manpower which will come at the expense of people's electric bill. Some estimates say that the bills could double or even triple which will have a significant impact on the poor and will likely push many in the middle class below the poverty line.

Reisender

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Posted: 04/09/20 10:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:



It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.


But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.

All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.


Agreed, that is why I say infrastructure is not static. It is constantly evolving. Take the Clipper creek unit in my pictures. That company made a decision to spend probably a few grand on putting that unit in. At this point I don't think it draws a lot of clientele but who knows in the future. They have a start though. That park is kind of a summer Vacation park with lots of permanents on leased lots. My guess is there are a bunch of owners/leasers with EV's (common in this area) and they got together and put it in. Just a guess. Surprisingly it is not a pay unit. Essentially free. That is the advantage of going with a company like chargepoint. They do all the work and just cut you in on the profits.


You are missing my point. I am not talking about the people putting in the chargers needing to upgrade their infrastructure. I am talking about the utility company that sends the power to that charger. A few or maybe even a dozen chargers are fine especially when there are so few EV's out their. However, adding more chargers and and more people using them will require more power, larger lines to send that power, and more substations to keep up the volume. Things that will cost a lot of money and that over 80% of the different utility companies are even ready for and will not be ready for in the next 20 or 30 years according to the smart electric power alliance.

My brother works for City Public Service in San Antonio in underground utilities. His main job is adding new lines or upgrading existing lines to larger ones due to demand along with repairing old lines in the underground areas downtown. They can't even keep up with the demand of adding new or upgraded lines for new buildings and the added pollution let alone alone what would happen if hundreds of chargers were added.

A few here and there are fine, but hundreds were require a major overhaul of their downtown grid. They have enough power due to their coal plants, wind mills, solar, and nuclear plants, but the infrastructure to meet the demand is way behind and they don't have the money or manpower to meet it even in the coming decades due to barely being able to keep up now. This would require additional funding and manpower which will come at the expense of people's electric bill. Some estimates say that the bills could double or even triple which will have a significant impact on the poor and will likely push many in the middle class below the poverty line.


Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.

New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. [emoticon]

[image]

Variations on a theme.

[image]

[image]

This one is in a Washington State park. 10 minute setup. About 35000 bucks. Truck drives in and drops it off. Built in storage. Great for isolated areas. Built in San diego. There is no singe solution but rather a collage.

[image]

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/09/20 10:58am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:



Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.

New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. [emoticon]


I don't know exactly how or even if other countries(that ave lower populations) are able to keep up with demand which is an assumption at this point. However, it appears buying doing quick Google searches on the matter that we aren't alone either.

UK power grid won’t handle popularity of electric cars, say service operators

German power grid not ready for e-car boom - study

I do know that most EV owners also have an ICE vehicle as back up which would allow you to charge for a lot longer time using less electricity at once since the need to charge every night or every other night is not there. The problem is not how many EV cars are out there, the problem is how many will need to charge at one time in a certain area and if they are all on fast chargers then that taxes the local grid even more. As stated before in the scenario of a 100 pad campground where half of the people would need to charge over night. That would take a lot of energy to quick charge or even trickle charge that many vehicles at one time.

Reisender

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Posted: 04/09/20 11:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ShinerBock wrote:

Reisender wrote:



Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.

New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. [emoticon]


I don't know exactly how or even if other countries(that ave lower populations) are able to keep up with demand which is an assumption at this point. However, it appears buying doing quick Google searches on the matter that we aren't alone either.

UK power grid won’t handle popularity of electric cars, say service operators

German power grid not ready for e-car boom - study

I do know that most EV owners also have an ICE vehicle as back up which would allow you to charge for a lot longer time using less electricity at once since the need to charge every night or every other night is not there. The problem is not how many EV cars are out there, the problem is how many will need to charge at one time in a certain area and if they are all on fast chargers then that taxes the local grid even more. As stated before in the scenario of a 100 pad campground where half of the people would need to charge over night. That would take a lot of energy to quick charge or even trickle charge that many vehicles at one time.


Yah. I don't think any country is ready for an overnight change. But they have a few decades to sort it out. Personally I'm not buying into the hopeless US situation. The US I know is is innovative, adaptable and quite often successful in the face of a challenge. Every country including the US will sort it out regardless of the can't do attitude we often see on forums like this and news story comments. You guys might be behind the eight ball now but you'll come out stronger as a result.

Five years ago our province was lagging behind in EV infrastructure as well. I think there were 7 DCFC and maybe 30 L2 charging facilities within 500 KM of our house. Now there are hundreds of DCFC's and I don't think anybody even tracks L2 chargers anymore. We are second behind Quebec and just in front of Washington State for infrastructure now. Huge change from a few years ago. We are on track for 10 percent of vehicle sales to be electric this year in this province, 4 years ahead of schedule. Demand is fueling infrastructure development. Quebec will be hard to catch. Great infrastructure there. It will be California that shines in the next couple years for development. My personal prediction is they will lead in the next three years. In one year 2 networks completed cross Canada DCFC charging infrastructure and a third will happen by 2021. (Tesla, Petro Canada this year and Shell next year). Interesting that two are gas companies.

Anyway. Enjoyed the discussion. Off to work on the honey dew list. Yeh. [emoticon]

ShinerBock

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Posted: 04/09/20 11:24am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:



Yah. I don't think any country is ready for an overnight change. But they have a few decades to sort it out. Personally I'm not buying into the hopeless US situation. The US I know is is innovative, adaptable and quite often successful in the face of a challenge. Every country including the US will sort it out regardless of the can't do attitude we often see on forums like this and news story comments. You guys might be behind the eight ball now but you'll come out stronger as a result.

Five years ago our province was lagging behind in EV infrastructure as well. I think there were 7 DCFC and maybe 30 L2 charging facilities within 500 KM of our house. Now there are hundreds of DCFC's and I don't think anybody even tracks L2 chargers anymore. We are second behind Quebec and just in front of Washington State for infrastructure now. Huge change from a few years ago. We are on track for 10 percent of vehicle sales to be electric this year in this province, 4 years ahead of schedule. Demand is fueling infrastructure development. Quebec will be hard to catch. Great infrastructure there. It will be California that shines in the next couple years for development. My personal prediction is they will lead in the next three years. In one year 2 networks completed cross Canada DCFC charging infrastructure and a third will happen by 2021. (Tesla, Petro Canada this year and Shell next year). Interesting that two are gas companies.

Anyway. Enjoyed the discussion. Off to work on the honey dew list. Yeh. [emoticon]


I am not saying the we or any else is hopeless. Not saying we won't get there either. I am just saying that there is a lot more to it than just installing chargers, and it will take a lot longer than some here seem to think. There are many hurtles in just the infrastructure alone such as cost, manpower, supplies(copper ain't cheap), and so on.

The major downside of this is that it will make the cost increase for those who are already using this power in order to pay for all of this needed infrastructure. It will cost even more to get it done in the timeline people here are expecting. This will hurt the poor the most and will increase the cost to charge a vehicle exponentially in the future especially during peak times. What people do not understand is that the price for power is not static and changes depending on peak hours. Right now, the night time is not peak hours so it is really cheap at this time. However, if everyone charges at this time, then that will push it into peak power costs.


You also have the political aspect of it because I am sure the poor or middle class will not like their electric bills doubling or even tripling just so people can charge their EVs. Get enough of them mad to sway a vote and that could change things.

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