RAWR Question?

[Grit_dog]

So help me 'cipher this....
Word on the rvnet street is that half tons are generally good for 3800-4800lbs RAWR depending on the setup (it's on the mighty door stickers anyway) and 3/4 tons are generally good for 6000-6500lbs rawr (from the super duper door sticker).

So was doin a little work last night to the Freedom Wagon. She's a 1986 GMC Sierra Classic K20 for those of you who arent' in the know.
With the mighty semi floating 14 bolt rear axle.

So I sees this little sticker...the infamous door sticker! (Not sure I've ever actually looked at one and studied it before, but with the littany of literature on the rvnet regarding the all powerful door sticker, I took a closer look!)

Well here it is. (Not the actual, my truck is blue, but it reads the very same as this image I pulled off the inner-webs.)



So's I get to thinkin, hmmm 6000lbs RAWR, bout the same as the rvnet weight cops say 3/4 tons are good for...cool!

But wait....there's more. This aint no strong as an Ox full floating heavy duty rear axle with a ring gear somewhere between 10.5" and 12" with big ole beefy double supported axle shafts.

Nooo, this is a puny little 9.5" ring gear, single row, semi floater axle....you know like today's half tons......the weak ones that are only supposed to be used for groceries, according to the weight cops.

So's I start researchin.
14bolt semi floater. 33 spline shafts, 1.37" diameter.
Hmm, look up the specs for my 2016 SilverAdo 1500 parked next to it....you know with the "weak" grocery getter 3800lb RAWR axle.
Whadaya know that 1/2 ton axle is 33 spline and 1.41" diameter!



Sooo, here's the question.
Did steel get weaker in the last 30 years?
Did mfgs get more regulated in the last 30 years?
OR
Did men become pansies in the last 30 years?

'Cause near as I can tell, my old axle is somehow rated for 3tons in a "8600gvw Camper Special" but essentially the same axle is rated 37% LESS in my "new" truck.

[ShinerBock]

mkirsch wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
They do not keep it a secret, you just have to know where to look.

No, you have to have privileged access to privileged information. You can look for that information until you die of old age and you'd never find it unless someone such as yourself provides a link to it, which is likely a violation of some fine print agreement which you signed.

None of this comes up in a google search, which is all a mere mortal such as myself who does not own 500+ trucks, has access to.

All of the stuff I linked was found with Google and is public info. I will grant you that it is a little hard to find depending on your Google skills. You have to type specific words and put "" around words that you want to be exact along with time limits to only show articles or links posted within that time frame. It is all in the way that you word it and what words are used.

[mkirsch]

ShinerBock wrote:
They do not keep it a secret, you just have to know where to look.

No, you have to have privileged access to privileged information. You can look for that information until you die of old age and you'd never find it unless someone such as yourself provides a link to it, which is likely a violation of some fine print agreement which you signed.

None of this comes up in a google search, which is all a mere mortal such as myself who does not own 500+ trucks, has access to.

[Me_Again]

Grit dog wrote:

Me Again wrote:

And it had the neat camper tie downs built into the bed of the truck. I should look and see if I can find a picture of the seat. I had a friend with an upholstery shop that rebuild the seat and did a nice cloth seat.

I want to see the seat pic!
Still looking for ideas for the blue truck. Have a good upholstery guy and not doing the 80s ugly assss crushed velvet.
Looking 70s cloth / vinyl patterns or saw a 1981 custom Deluxe with a 1 year only pattern that is the shizz.

I looked this morning for a while, but did not find a picture. Sorry.

[Grit_dog]

Me Again wrote:

And it had the neat camper tie downs built into the bed of the truck. I should look and see if I can find a picture of the seat. I had a friend with an upholstery shop that rebuild the seat and did a nice cloth seat.

I want to see the seat pic!
Still looking for ideas for the blue truck. Have a good upholstery guy and not doing the 80s ugly assss crushed velvet.
Looking 70s cloth / vinyl patterns or saw a 1981 custom Deluxe with a 1 year only pattern that is the shizz.

[ShinerBock]

mkirsch wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

mkirsch wrote:
If we're not to believe the numbers on the door sticker, what DO we believe?

Is there a certain measurement that we can take between the bumper and the ground that tells us the truck is at risk of a component failure?

Or, do we just load whatever, and go?

I guess you have to wing it just like all those people had to do before they started putting those numbers on the door.

Having worked in the medium/heavy duty truck industry all my life, I have come to realize that certain vehicles ratings are limited by regulation, and others are limited by actual component limits. You have to do a little homework to which is limiting your. This should be hard to do since most people have more knowledge in their phone and can quickly access knowledge that would take people just a few decades ago hours, days, weeks or even a lifetime to find out. Sometimes, you would never be able to find out the kind of info you can know within seconds today.

I know you made a typo when you said "This should be hard to do" but you hit upon the truth with that statement. It *IS* hard to do.

The only results of any "research" I try to do on this leads me back to forums like this, where it's the same ages-old argument between the "door sticker" and the "I put way more than that on my truck and nobody died" crowds.

I have found NO numbers, such as the axle is rated for X,XXXlbs, the springs are rated for Y,YYYlbs, and the frame is rated for Z,ZZZlbs. The manufacturers understandably keep this information under lock and key so we as the consumers can't sue them if we hurt or kill ourselves or someone else when going by those numbers instead of the door sticker. Just conjecture from old men who claim to know what they're doing.

They do not keep it a secret, you just have to know where to look. I know where to look since I have been in the industry for all these years. They do not readily give this type of info to the everyday buyer, but they do give it to the fleets. My company has a 500+ fleet and we are approached by every truck make on a regular bases to buy their products.

Here is the fleet link for GM products. Change the type of vehcile in the upper right corner.

GM Fleet

Ram used to have the bodybuilder site below, but it has moved for newer vehicles.

Ram Bodybuilder

Ford is a little trickier. I can easily find the info since we have 9 Ford dealerships and I have a Ford dealer login, but I cannot share that info with a link since you don't have a dealer password and due to other non-disclosure agreements. Below is an example that is already published, but it is for an F-650/750. I cannot find a published one for an F150 or Super Duty. As you can see it is very detailed.

F-650/750 Technical Specifications


The gross axle weight rating, the axle itself without suspension or tires put on my the vehicle manufacturer, information comes from the manufacturer that makes these axle for each manufacturer. Most Ford's are Dana and most GM's and Ram's are AAM. This GAWR changes once the vehicle manufacturers puts on brakes, tires and suspension to accommodate for the weakest link in the system. Generally, the axle itself is rated to handle thousands of pounds more than the axle system since it is generally the tires or suspension that is the weak link.

For example, the AAM 11.5 rear axle in my truck has a rating of 10,000 lbs by AAM. However, it has a 6,500 lb axle system rating in my 2500 due to suspension being the week link and a 7,000 lb rating in the 3500 version of my truck due to it having a slightly heavier duty suspension. Tire, brakes, and frame on both trucks are the same.

[Me_Again]

Grit dog wrote:
MeAgain, awesome pics!
Your truck was a “real” 3/4ton with a full floater 14 bolt.
Amazing what “was” done in the last and is now looked down upon.....albeit mostly by keyboard warrior internet experts.
Was the point of my thread....cheers guys!

And it had the neat camper tie downs built into the bed of the truck. I should look and see if I can find a picture of the seat. I had a friend with an upholstery shop that rebuild the seat and did a nice cloth seat.

[mkirsch]

ShinerBock wrote:

mkirsch wrote:
If we're not to believe the numbers on the door sticker, what DO we believe?

Is there a certain measurement that we can take between the bumper and the ground that tells us the truck is at risk of a component failure?

Or, do we just load whatever, and go?

I guess you have to wing it just like all those people had to do before they started putting those numbers on the door.

Having worked in the medium/heavy duty truck industry all my life, I have come to realize that certain vehicles ratings are limited by regulation, and others are limited by actual component limits. You have to do a little homework to which is limiting your. This should be hard to do since most people have more knowledge in their phone and can quickly access knowledge that would take people just a few decades ago hours, days, weeks or even a lifetime to find out. Sometimes, you would never be able to find out the kind of info you can know within seconds today.

I know you made a typo when you said "This should be hard to do" but you hit upon the truth with that statement. It *IS* hard to do.

The only results of any "research" I try to do on this leads me back to forums like this, where it's the same ages-old argument between the "door sticker" and the "I put way more than that on my truck and nobody died" crowds.

I have found NO numbers, such as the axle is rated for X,XXXlbs, the springs are rated for Y,YYYlbs, and the frame is rated for Z,ZZZlbs. The manufacturers understandably keep this information under lock and key so we as the consumers can't sue them if we hurt or kill ourselves or someone else when going by those numbers instead of the door sticker. Just conjecture from old men who claim to know what they're doing.

[Grit_dog]

MeAgain, awesome pics!
Your truck was a “real” 3/4ton with a full floater 14 bolt.
Amazing what “was” done in the last and is now looked down upon.....albeit mostly by keyboard warrior internet experts.
Was the point of my thread....cheers guys!

[Grit_dog]

^Wish there was a “like” button RJ!!!

[rjstractor]

Grit Dog wrote:
Sooo, here's the question.
Did steel get weaker in the last 30 years?
Did mfgs get more regulated in the last 30 years?
OR
Did men become pansies in the last 30 years?

In a rare attempt of mine to actually keep a thread on its original topic, here's an answer your question....

No, yes, and yes.

[Me_Again]

Me Again wrote:

Grit dog wrote:
Here's a pic of the subject at hand.



Edit: Yes I know the rims are too narrow for the tires. Not my doing...It's gonna get some 35-12.50-20s on 20x11 steelies once she's all painted up and pretty.

We had a 76 K-20 Camper Special, with 350. Loved everything about it except the pea green color. Put a 268 cam in it advanced 4 degree. Ran good.

Found a picture of mine with a 11 foot Lance Camper onboard. I had it bagged. Pre RV.net weight police!!!

When we got the truck in the mid 80's it was full time 4x4. I installed a Mile-Maker conversion kit to make it a conventional 4x4. Locking hubs on the front axle and wages in place on spider gears in the center differential to look it.

[ShinerBock]

mkirsch wrote:
If we're not to believe the numbers on the door sticker, what DO we believe?

Is there a certain measurement that we can take between the bumper and the ground that tells us the truck is at risk of a component failure?

Or, do we just load whatever, and go?

I guess you have to wing it just like all those people had to do before they started putting those numbers on the door.

Having worked in the medium/heavy duty truck industry all my life, I have come to realize that certain vehicles ratings are limited by regulation, and others are limited by actual component limits. You have to do a little homework to which is limiting your. This should be hard to do since most people have more knowledge in their phone and can quickly access knowledge that would take people just a few decades ago hours, days, weeks or even a lifetime to find out. Sometimes, you would never be able to find out the kind of info you can know within seconds today.

In the case of my 2014 2500, it is limited by regulations rather than the actual limits of its parts which are the same as other vehicles with much higher ratings. The 3500 version and my 2500 use the exact same trans, frame, axles, brakes, and front suspension. The only difference it rear suspension which is why the 2500 has 6,500 rear GAWR and the 3500 has a 7,000 rear GAWR. Front GAWR are the same. However, even though they only have a 500 lb difference in GAWR, they have 1,500 lbs difference in GVWR since my 2500 is capped out at a max GVWR of 10k due to regulation of the truck class it is in and the 3500 has a much higher max GVWR in the class it is in.

This is why I do not hesitate to load 3,200 in the back of my truck even though the sticker says max is 2,200. I am sure this will trigger the weight police since they have to be within the limits someone tells them to be in. Going outside these limits gives them anxiety attacks with visions of accidents, cops pulling them over, and lawyers knocking on their door.

[mkirsch]

If we're not to believe the numbers on the door sticker, what DO we believe?

Is there a certain measurement that we can take between the bumper and the ground that tells us the truck is at risk of a component failure?

Or, do we just load whatever, and go?

[Thunderbolt]

Grit dog wrote:
So help me 'cipher this....
Word on the rvnet street is that half tons are generally good for 3800-4800lbs RAWR depending on the setup (it's on the mighty door stickers anyway) and 3/4 tons are generally good for 6000-6500lbs rawr (from the super duper door sticker).

So was doin a little work last night to the Freedom Wagon. She's a 1986 GMC Sierra Classic K20 for those of you who arent' in the know.
With the mighty semi floating 14 bolt rear axle.

So I sees this little sticker...the infamous door sticker! (Not sure I've ever actually looked at one and studied it before, but with the littany of literature on the rvnet regarding the all powerful door sticker, I took a closer look!)

Well here it is. (Not the actual, my truck is blue, but it reads the very same as this image I pulled off the inner-webs.)



So's I get to thinkin, hmmm 6000lbs RAWR, bout the same as the rvnet weight cops say 3/4 tons are good for...cool!

But wait....there's more. This aint no strong as an Ox full floating heavy duty rear axle with a ring gear somewhere between 10.5" and 12" with big ole beefy double supported axle shafts.

Nooo, this is a puny little 9.5" ring gear, single row, semi floater axle....you know like today's half tons......the weak ones that are only supposed to be used for groceries, according to the weight cops.

So's I start researchin.
14bolt semi floater. 33 spline shafts, 1.37" diameter.
Hmm, look up the specs for my 2016 SilverAdo 1500 parked next to it....you know with the "weak" grocery getter 3800lb RAWR axle.
Whadaya know that 1/2 ton axle is 33 spline and 1.41" diameter!



Sooo, here's the question.
Did steel get weaker in the last 30 years?
Did mfgs get more regulated in the last 30 years?
OR
Did men become pansies in the last 30 years?

'Cause near as I can tell, my old axle is somehow rated for 3tons in a "8600gvw Camper Special" but essentially the same axle is rated 37% LESS in my "new" truck.

Not sure if it is true or not, but I read somewhere years ago that the 9.5" diff that was used on the 3/4 tons used axle tubes that had a thicker wall thickness which would actual change weight rating of the axle as well. Not sure on the axle shaft diameter either. Could they be hardened to different specs that make the smaller one stronger ? Your guess is as good as mine.