Good Sam Club Open Roads Forum: Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??
Open Roads Forum Already a member? Login here.   If not, Register Today!  |  Help

Newest  |  Active  |  Popular  |  RVing FAQ Forum Rules  |  Forum Posting Help and Support  |  Contact  

Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tech Issues

Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??

Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 3  
Prev  |  Next
BFL13

Victoria, BC

Senior Member

Joined: 02/15/2006

View Profile



Posted: 11/28/20 07:12pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My point on SG was that you added the water, so that dilutes the acid from what it would have been after a full recharge. Now you will have to do some cycles to get that right.

Recharging also heats up the electrolyte, expanding it, which is less dense and that is why you let the battery sit till it cools off to get the proper SG reading (which will be higher when cooler)

Yes, 1.300 is the "new 1.275" it seems. Higher SG means faster eating of the plates, so you will need new batteries sooner. But it has its good points too.


1. 1991 Oakland 28DB Class C
on Ford E350-460-7.5 Gas EFI
Photo in Profile
2. 1991 Bighorn 9.5ft Truck Camper on 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 Gas
See Profile for Electronic set-ups for 1. and 2.

profdant139

Southern California

Senior Member

Joined: 11/14/2005

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/28/20 09:34pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

D'oh!! Is it true that a high SG reduces the battery life?? I thought high SG was a good thing. Oh, well.

Is there a way to adjust the SG so it is at a sweet spot -- plenty of power without eating the plates?


2012 Fun Finder X-139 "Boondock Style" (axle-flipped and extra insulation)
2013 Toyota Tacoma Off-Road (semi-beefy tires and components)
Our trips -- pix and text
About our trailer
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single list."


Gdetrailer

PA

Senior Member

Joined: 01/05/2007

View Profile



Posted: 11/29/20 11:26am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

profdant139 wrote:



One more thing about sulphation -- I have these two batteries charging in parallel on a BatteryMinder Plus, which pulses in order to reduce or eliminate sulphation. I know that there is some controversy over whether such a thing is possible. (Mexicowanderer is skeptical, and I value his opinion.)

But the manufacturer of the device has made a factual representation that the unit really can stop and even reverse the process of sulphation. (And there are quite a few reviews in which the review swears that the device cures sulphation.)

I don't have the expertise to evaluate this claim. But I can tell you that if this claim were demonstrably false, the manufacturer would have been sued for fraud.

I have checked, and no such suits have been brought. So my conclusion is that if no trial lawyer has challenged the manufacturer, these devices work as advertised.


Batteries actually act/behave like a huge "electrolytic capacitor" like you would see in the beginning of a old school transformer based linear power supply right after the diodes..

The battery actually smooths out the choppy 60hz/120hz (half wave/full wave rectifier) ripple present in a unregulated linear power supply.. That is how the old school linear converters worked, they didn't use any filter caps and used the battery to filter out the ripple.

It would take considerably higher voltage (and current) "pulses" which would have the potential of damaging or ruining every 12V device connected to the battery to really get past the battery acting as a filter capacitor.

"Pulse" charging has been wide spread used way before all of the fancy "smart" chargers.. Just look at ANY old school transformer based charger.. Not one stitch of a capacitor in those.. Just transformer, diode bridge and circuit breaker.. Batteries got 13.6-13.8V PLUS a heavy dose of AC ripple on top of the DC.

Even most old school NiCad chargers did the same and those often would severally overcharge and kill the batteries when left in the charger too long..

Because of this, I myself am highly skeptical many of those "pulse" charging claims.

Overcharging and undercharging are your two greatest enemies of any battery. It is most likely why the main reason so many folks are gravitating towards more expensive Lith battery solutions which have built in BMS. Lith batteries require a BMS which handles the charging and discharging aspects with no intervention of the user..

However, if you have a decent enough multistage converter you can do as well as Lith with FLA with very little baby sitting..

Just have to make sure you follow a few simple rules like recharge as soon as possible after discharge, keep the water level ABOVE the plates, never allow batteries to sit in a discharged state while in storage and your batteries will reward you with good life.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/18/2004

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 12:23pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Fastest way to destroy a battery is over charging.

Second fastest way is to chronically under charge the battery.

That's why SiO2 and Li look better. SiO2 doesn't care if you undercharge, nor does Li. SiO2 wants fully charging to happen every 30 days, and stores well for 12 months. Li wants to store at 50% state of charge for longest life. SiO2 doesn't self destruct if you take it to zero volts. I would not do that to an Li bank.

Li charges faster than SiO2--if you have a way to charge at high rates. But most of us have at most a 70 amp converter. Li wants you to stop at 90% for best life span.

It will be most interesting to follow some of our "less than careful" brethren who have switched to Li. There may be some loud noises!


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp hours of AGM in two battery banks 12 volt batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/18/2004

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 12:27pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

profdant139 wrote:

D'oh!! Is it true that a high SG reduces the battery life?? I thought high SG was a good thing. Oh, well.

Is there a way to adjust the SG so it is at a sweet spot -- plenty of power without eating the plates?


The positive plate erodes over time. The higher the SG the faster that happens. There is no way to avoid it. It could be slowed by deliberately diluting the acid. But the trade off is a lower capacity in amp-hours.

Using diluted acid may be done where daily temperatures are high (as in 100 f and up).

Enjoy your new batteries!

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

Senior Member

Joined: 06/01/2007

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 12:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Temperature is a factor. Thicker plates is a factor. Denser plates is a factor. Plate alloys are a factor. Envelope separators are a factor. Bean counters running the zoo are a factor. Denser gravity and higher temperatures also greatly speed up sulfation.

Batteries and beer cans
Recycle is the key

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

Senior Member

Joined: 06/01/2007

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 12:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Temperature is a factor. Thicker plates is a factor. Denser plates is a factor. Plate alloys are a factor. Envelope separators are a factor. Bean counters running the zoo are a factor. Denser gravity and higher temperatures also greatly speed up sulfation.

Batteries and beer cans
Recycle is the key

profdant139

Southern California

Senior Member

Joined: 11/14/2005

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 12:49pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I guess I have to accept the fact that FLA batteries are "wear" items -- they don't last forever. I give them as much TLC as I can -- never over-discharging them, always recharging them fully as soon as possible, keeping them on a trickle charger, checking water and SG, etc.

This last set of batteries lasted five years -- I would estimate 400 nights of camping during that time (80 or more nights per year). Decent life, but I have heard of others who got much better results than I did.

It could be that my usage was a little tougher than average, because we usually experience about 20 nights of subfreezing temps during each camping season. We also tow the trailer on rough forest roads almost every trip -- it could be that the bouncing is hard on the components of the batteries.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

Senior Member

Joined: 12/18/2004

View Profile


Offline
Posted: 11/29/20 01:15pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

profdant139,

I think you are doing better than lots of folks on battery life.

I'm not a fan of trickle charging. I'd just use a disconnect switch--and charge once every 30 days for 24 hours.

Conversely, I am a fan of solar charging systems.

Cold is better for batteries if they have been fully charged. The chemical reactions are slower--and therefor so is plate erosion.

Gdetrailer

PA

Senior Member

Joined: 01/05/2007

View Profile



Posted: 11/29/20 01:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My comments in red..

profdant139 wrote:

I guess I have to accept the fact that FLA batteries are "wear" items -- they don't last forever. I give them as much TLC as I can -- never over-discharging them, always recharging them fully as soon as possible, keeping them on a trickle charger, checking water and SG, etc.


Actually ALL "batteries" are "wear items", in fact each time you "use" them (IE discharge/recharge cycle) you ARE "wearing them out". ALL batteries are a "consumable", you consume a part of them, physically and chemically.

Does not matter what the chemical composition of a battery is, over time they WILL ALL FAIL. It is more the matter of when they will fail.

For those banking on Lith type batteries to giving longer life, yeah, you WILL be disappointed down the road that you sunk that money into a MORE EXPENSIVE consumable item and get very little extra life out of them.

I have dealt with AGMs and Lith batteries in 24/7/365 industrial useage devices, for the money the company wasted on those batteries I could have retired 10 yrs ago and been a multi-millionaire. Company spent a lot of money sending out replacement batteries on warranties..

AGMs ARE nothing more than glorified GELCELLS, they are finicky about charging voltages and Lith can suddenly without warning STOP charging or DISCHARGING due to BMS (and for the ones with integrated BMS there is zero hope of ever bringing those back to life). Yeah, have dealt with a lot of DOA lith batteries with sudden death, customers were not real happy..

I can buy a heck of a lot of FLA batteries for the cost of other battery tech and that is a fact, so even if you had to replace FLA in 5 yrs instead of 6yrs for other tech you are more cost effective buying FLA..



This last set of batteries lasted five years -- I would estimate 400 nights of camping during that time (80 or more nights per year). Decent life, but I have heard of others who got much better results than I did.

My last set of Gc2s got me 9 yrs, could have used them another yr or two but I use them to power my home fridge conversion and they were showing signs of lower capacity.. When I use them I am discharging them at least 50% of the capacity, sometimes a lot more if I need the furnace overnight. They do get to loaf most of the yr as we only get a couple of weeks to camp but when we do camp, they are worked hard.

It could be that my usage was a little tougher than average, because we usually experience about 20 nights of subfreezing temps during each camping season. We also tow the trailer on rough forest roads almost every trip -- it could be that the bouncing is hard on the components of the batteries.

I doubt towing on rough roads are having much effect on the battery.. Most of the wear is on how you handle the discharge/recharge cycle and how deep of discharge they get.. The less discharge, the longer life they will have overall.. You might be discharging deeper than you should but at 400 cycles that is not all that bad when you think of it..

Found a article that pretty much is saying the same thing as I am mentioning and perhaps be helpful to understand batteries..


HERE

Might be worth mentioning, charging too hard or not hard enough can and does affect the battery life, in essence there is a sweet spot between battery capacity and charge capacity..




Reply to Topic  |  Subscribe  |  Print Topic  |  Post New Topic  | 
Page of 3  
Prev  |  Next

Open Roads Forum  >  Tech Issues

 > Check water level on new battery! And screw-on lids??
Search:   Advanced Search

Search only in Tech Issues


New posts No new posts
Closed, new posts Closed, no new posts
Moved, new posts Moved, no new posts

Adjust text size:




© 2021 CWI, Inc. © 2021 Good Sam Enterprises, LLC. All Rights Reserved.