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 > You have 13 yrs 11 mths left to buy a GM gas or dsl vehicle

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goducks10

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Posted: 01/29/21 09:12am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Very easy to put out press releases that won't be enforced until current management will be long gone and the new management can change them to meet real conditions.


GM was already planning this before the Biden adminn announced it.
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news........en/2020/nov/1119-electric-portfolio.html

aftermath

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Posted: 01/29/21 09:25am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

This has been an interesting read. It has covered everything from a to z and has managed to get everyone all riled up. This is not going to happen overnight and the market will have a lot to do with everything. NO, they are not going to do away with ICE tow vehicles, at least not right away. Just read in my morning paper about the new F150 hybrid engine. The "hybrid" is not a pure electrical engine and does not need recharging. It still runs on gasoline, but a lot less. It is not limited by the length of a trip like an EV is.

I like the concept of EVs although they would fit well with a portion of consumers, but not all of them. Perhaps, with time, the kinks will be figured out and an EV could be in most garages. I am not worried or threatened by the vision of GM. I applaud their willingness to take a chance. It will serve us all well down the road. I owned a prius and it was fantastic for dependability and economy. Built too low to the ground and was terrible in the snow. I now have a RAV4 hybrid. I am getting about 36mpg during the winter and look forward to comparing this to summer trips.

Back to the market. People want more efficient vehicles. EV's are the best in that regard but do need recharging. The infrastructure is not built yet to support these. In comes a company who wants to "meet the needs of the market" so they invent and install a diesel fed generating station to charge a battery to help save the environment. Ah, such is the power of the market. This is what we will get....


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pigman1

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Posted: 01/29/21 09:46am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Sorry, but this thread has gotten way beyond stupid. We have a very few engineers here who know the real pluses and minuses of electric vehicles, and the grid necessary to power then and then we have the vast majority of those who've drunk the cool aid and listen with fervent belief to the PR hacks, stock sellers and the idiot politicians. That's those who believe the PR releases and believe the highly intelligent and well thought out pronouncements by those thinking to squeeze another billion dollars from the unknowing taxpayers to promote their political agenda and topic of the day.

Enjoy. . . I'm out of here.


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gbopp

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Posted: 01/29/21 10:26am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

gbopp wrote:

I can't wait to see the plans to convert the Boeing B-52 to electric engines. [emoticon]


General Motors owns Boeing?

I didn't say GM owns Boeing. I just made a sarcastic remark. [emoticon]

TomG2

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Posted: 01/29/21 10:30am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SPRey wrote:

What if--

...snip....
What if our electronic infrastructure is disrupted by the sun (solar storm) or from an attack from an enemy (China/Russia/North Korea/Iran)?

No electricity, no electronic infrastructure, no power to recharge our battery powered devices/vehicles.

....snip....
....

You are disregarding that such a shutdown would knock out all fueling stations of all kinds. Too horrible to imagine, but using fossil fuels is not going to help. Folks with guns would be coming after our five gallon fuel cans.

time2roll

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Posted: 01/29/21 10:43am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

SPRey wrote:

What if--

What if all vehicles are electric (requiring the power grid to be charged) and all ICE cars outlawed.
What if all gas/diesel fuels are also outlawed (Paris Accord/Green New Deal/Great Reset Initiative/Davos 2021).
What if our electronic infrastructure is disrupted by the sun (solar storm) or from an attack from an enemy (China/Russia/North Korea/Iran)?

No electricity, no electronic infrastructure, no power to recharge our battery powered devices/vehicles.

And I hear the howls, "Oh, come on man! This can't happen...man made blackouts are temporary and can be fixed."

Not so for Electromagnetic Pulse effect from solar storms, geomagnetic reversal and we have man made--the EMP weapons China and Russia are/have developed.

To counter US' repeated trespasses into Chinese territorial waters, the Chinese military has the option of using new approaches, including the deployment of electromagnetic weapons, Song Zhongping, a Chinese military expert and commentator, told the Global Times on Tuesday.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1182886.shtml

DuckDuckGo/Google this search term: "EMP" "Pearl Harbor"
and select your favorite "biased" news source.

Is any government/global power capable of handling an EMP crises? As evidenced with COVID-19, IMO the answer is no. For decades western governments have spent billions of dollars preparing for biological warfare and civil defense protection/recovery--from threats with mortality rates of over 90% (anthrax, genetically modified organisms, etc). But when challenged with COVID-19 with a teensy weensy >1% mortality rate--we are greeted with global incompetence. All hat, no cowboy. They all over promised and under delivered.

Methinks the old style ICE engines (the ones without CPUs) will be in great demand in post EMP world. Should have kept my old '68 VW bug, packed it in grease and buried it in my backyard.

And for those that like to read, download this http://www.firstempcommission.org/upload........of_emp_attack_by_peter_pry_july_2017.pdf
What if as part of the transition to the new electric economy most every home and business had solar and battery? A new grid based upon a collection of mini grids. If part fails the rest continues, many are individually self sufficient with some conservation.

Otherwise all the same issues with destruction of oil production and refining.

With the central generating plants we have now the grid is actually more susceptible to disruption. The solar - wind - battery grid actually is more secure.

Disruption is tough for those that are made obsolete and they will fight it all the way. Economics favors more solar and wind so it will be coming like it or not.


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valhalla360

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Posted: 01/29/21 11:01am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

People are going to love them. Could break the marginal dealers as the service revenue will taper off to about nothing.


More likely, the price of cars goes up as a result.

No dealers can make a go of it purely on new car sales. This isn't limited to "marginal" dealers.

Plus if you look at vehicle maintenance, actual major engine repair is pretty rare. Tire, Brakes, Suspension, Oil Changes are the bulk of the work. Other than possibly a brakes, those all will be present in EVs. Plus with EVs having a very heavy battery bank, suspensions will need to be beefed up and more expensive.


Oil changes will not be present on EV’s. We had our first EV for 5 years. We added washer fluid half a dozen times. Just before I sold it I put a new 12 volt battery in it because I knew it was coming due and I didn’t want the older couple to have any issues with it. If I remember correctly around 125 bucks. EV’s are drive and forget.


Sorry mistyped and left out the oil change...$25 once, twice a year on a $40,000 car...doesn't move the needle in terms of cost.

EVs, ICE, whatever, they are all pretty much drive and forget. Haven't had any major engine work since....I think is was 30yrs ago I had a timing gear failure on a 1986 S-15. Sure, there are exceptions but I've also heard of failures with EV drivetrains. In either case they are very rare unless you do something stupid.


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valhalla360

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Posted: 01/29/21 11:11am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

goducks10 wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

Very easy to put out press releases that won't be enforced until current management will be long gone and the new management can change them to meet real conditions.


GM was already planning this before the Biden adminn announced it.
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news........en/2020/nov/1119-electric-portfolio.html


They are kowtowing to the eco faithful. As long as the commitment is many years into the future, that's easy to do.

If the technology is half as good as some suggest, why didn't they set a 5yr horizon. As you say, this isn't a new thing for GM. They've been looking into it for years (remember the EV1) and most models get a major redesign on around a 5yr schedule, so why isn't it 2026?

Easy, they know it would be financial death to do more than talk about it and put out a model or two to show they are making an effort.

PS: I thought the Volt (Plug-In-Hybrid) was a great idea. In normal use, they are 100% battery electric for commuting but if they want to take a longer trip, there's no complications. Biggest issue was cost was too high when put up against comparable vehicles.

valhalla360

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Posted: 01/29/21 11:23am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

bgum wrote:

The ICE is on its way out just like the horse was. There will be a few around but it will be few for special purposes.


EVs will remain niche vehicles for a long time. The question is how big with the niche be.
- A lot of delivery trucks run very predictable routes with limited miles and return to a storage yard every night (think UPS truck). These are in the early stages of change over.
- City buses (not long haul/tourist buses) these typically operate at low speeds where wind resistance doesn't eat into their range and you can fit massive battery banks under the floor. Add in regenerative braking and again, you have a predictable number of route miles and a home base they go to each night to charge.
- Long haul trucking, tour buses, etc..., they make money by eating up miles. Sitting for an hour or more to recharge doesn't cut it.

Similarly with cars, multicar families can afford to keep one car dedicated to commuting, so converting that to EV is easy when you have an ICE powered car ready for big family trips. That could get you up into 30-40% of cars sold.

Plug-In-Hybrids are a big missing piece of the puzzle. This allows you to plug in and get pretty much all of your commuter miles as battery/electric but when you have a long trip, it seamlessly kicks on the ICE and you really don't even have to think about it. This also addresses the battery supply problem that will kick in if we ever get over 1-2% of production as EVs.

Reisender

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Posted: 01/29/21 11:47am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

time2roll wrote:

People are going to love them. Could break the marginal dealers as the service revenue will taper off to about nothing.


More likely, the price of cars goes up as a result.

No dealers can make a go of it purely on new car sales. This isn't limited to "marginal" dealers.

Plus if you look at vehicle maintenance, actual major engine repair is pretty rare. Tire, Brakes, Suspension, Oil Changes are the bulk of the work. Other than possibly a brakes, those all will be present in EVs. Plus with EVs having a very heavy battery bank, suspensions will need to be beefed up and more expensive.


Oil changes will not be present on EV’s. We had our first EV for 5 years. We added washer fluid half a dozen times. Just before I sold it I put a new 12 volt battery in it because I knew it was coming due and I didn’t want the older couple to have any issues with it. If I remember correctly around 125 bucks. EV’s are drive and forget.


Sorry mistyped and left out the oil change...$25 once, twice a year on a $40,000 car...doesn't move the needle in terms of cost.

EVs, ICE, whatever, they are all pretty much drive and forget. Haven't had any major engine work since....I think is was 30yrs ago I had a timing gear failure on a 1986 S-15. Sure, there are exceptions but I've also heard of failures with EV drivetrains. In either case they are very rare unless you do something stupid.


Trudat.

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