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rlw999

Washington State

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Posted: 02/10/21 02:06pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

rlw999 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

What happens when the road isn't where it is supposed to be? Like in a construction zone where the road was moved over a few feet. I know. The car runs into the guard rail. Seen it happen.


Automated vehicles don't blindly follow a pre-mapped route down to the foot, they have cameras, radar and lidar to help them see.


Might want to tell that to Telsa. I saw what happens when in a construction zone where the barrier is moved over 2 feet. Telsa upside down.


Tesla's "autopilot", despite what their marketing says, is not a self-driving system. It's a driver assistance feature, but the driver still needs to pay attention to the road.

Tesla also saved money by not using LIDAR to detect obstacles, while most of the truck based systems do use it (mostly because a $5000 LIDAR sensor is a lot more affordable on a $200K truck than a $50K car, especially when it's replacing a $75K/year driver)

Terryallan

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Posted: 02/10/21 02:08pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

JIMNLIN wrote:

A trucker drives his rig to either a shipping point or the delivery point. He has to stop at the security gate out front for farther information or get out of his rig, once he is in the yard, and find a receiving/shipping person and get a dock number and a load/unload time. Sometimes the driver is told to leave and come back at another time.
I doubt the warehouse/customer is going to spend millions of bucks setting up a system to handle drivers free trucks.

I can see how a intermodel shipping yard like UP or BNSF could use driver less pony trucks to move containers around in those huge yards.


My Dad drove for Johnson Motor lines out of Charlotte NC. Of course they had terminals all over. In 18 years of driving for them he never had to hunt a dock, or back in. He stopped at the Terminal office, him, and his partner got out, went in and showered while the "yard jocky" took the truck, backed into the dock, unhooked, and hooked up another trailer. Then brought the tractor, and new trailer back to the office. Dad and buddy got back in, and drove back toward home. Johnson wasn't called LAZY J for nothing.

But I do agree with you. No normal freight yard, or produce warehouse is going to have a army of yard jockies. especially since the driver most often has to negotiate with the dock workers a price for unloading the trailer.


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time2roll

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Posted: 02/10/21 02:17pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

Might want to tell that to Telsa. I saw what happens when in a construction zone where the barrier is moved over 2 feet. Telsa upside down.
Picture? Are you certain this was FSD not the preliminary assisted driving?


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Reisender

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Posted: 02/10/21 02:29pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

rlw999 wrote:

Terryallan wrote:

What happens when the road isn't where it is supposed to be? Like in a construction zone where the road was moved over a few feet. I know. The car runs into the guard rail. Seen it happen.


Automated vehicles don't blindly follow a pre-mapped route down to the foot, they have cameras, radar and lidar to help them see.


Might want to tell that to Telsa. I saw what happens when in a construction zone where the barrier is moved over 2 feet. Telsa upside down.


Well, Tesla has a level 2 system so if a driver let it drive into a barrier the driver is at fault. A Tesla full self drive system will do exactly that, self drive with human supervision. Having said that it will make some limited efforts to avoid obstacles etc. From experience I can tell you it does not avoid pot holes. Again, level 2, pay attention and follow the direction for its use. It’s a very nice drivers aid.

Autopilot without FSD is a lane keeping feature, similar to Propilot etc. It may be wrong but I don’t think it even stops at stop lights and stop signs. Not sure, we have the FSD suite so not a 100 percent sure what autopilot does and doesn’t do. I know I let it make all my lane changes as it’s better at checking blind spots than me...although I check anyway.

The new FSD beta is supposed to be amazing, but so far only about a thousand test cars have it. Rumour has it by summer the rest of us will have it.

Etstorm

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Posted: 02/10/21 06:46pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rhagfo wrote:

BB_TX wrote:

Ultimately they will likely be safer than human driven trucks. Will not get sleepy, distracted, driving while eating, etc. all while following driving rules and speed limits.

pnichols wrote:

Scarry is right!!

Imagine how full of integrated circuits, complex mechanical components, and communications equipment (for Internet and/or satellite connectivity) ... those trucks will be full of. All of that can, and will, fail here and there over time.

I hope that transportation regulations require those trucks to be clearly marked - including distinctive night lighting - so that the rest of us can stay well away from them on the highways.

P.S. Maybe I spent too many years working in the integrated circuits industry and too many hours watching those cable reality shows about big rig accident disasters in Alaska - most which have nothing to do with human error - but can be blamed on 80,000 lbs. of freight inter-acting with the laws of physics.


I worked in the IT sector also, it isn't only hardware, but the software that runs on it.
Too many time in the rush to deploy new programs, there were always a "Work Around" or a situation that wasn't tested.
what happens when the road is snow covered, and the chains required signs are up???


And all of those chips made in China!

Groover

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Posted: 02/11/21 07:39am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

A lot of comments about potential risks here. I have confidence that just like with the 737MAX, defects will be discovered and dealt with. When that is done all vehicles on the road will get the update and it won't happen again. Unlike human drivers where everyone has to be taught from scratch. Also, if there is a road change the first automated vehicle to encounter it can quickly file a report and notify every other automated vehicle on the road to avoid it. Just yesterday I had to stop, turn around and backtrack with a large heavy trailer because of a poorly marked road closure. That could easily be avoided with automated vehicles. Who knows, we might even be able to get the humans making the changes to post them on a shared data site. Emergency vehicles could broadcast a geofence around themselves and troubled areas.

I like the story a few pages back about the stop sign coming and going. It reminded me of a time when apparently somebody had run over a stop sign. It was a road that I was not very familiar with and I didn't realize that the stop sign was missing until I was blowing through the intersection at 50mph. My wife didn't see a stop sign once due to heavy rain in the dark and did the same thing. Very fortunately, nobody was injured in either incident and vehicle damage was minor though for her it came very close to being much worse. Tesla FSD would have prevented both incidents altogether.

What I am really looking forward to is having the automated vehicles do a lot more of their driving at night to reduce daytime congestion. They can drive around the clock without fatigue to get things where they need to be faster. We won't have acres of trucks idling all night every night to keep a sleeping driver comfortable while consuming fuel and emitting pollution. Heck, we won't even need nearly as many truck stops taking up prime real estate along interstates and won't have nearly as many trucks getting on and off the road for the driver to a leak and get a snack. Automated driving may force us to deal with chronic problems that humans put up with or don't know who to complain to like potholes, ridiculous speed limits and poorly designed intersections. If a truck is involved in an accident it will be well documented as to what happened.

The biggest threat to automated driving is stupid drivers in cars around them or even worse, idiots bullying automated trucks with the knowledge that the trucks will yield to them. Submitted evidence of this behavior should result in traffic tickets being issued to the offending driver. The next big obstacle is how to deal with vehicle failures, like flat tires. It is not widely reported but even John Deere recognizes that tractors need to be equipped with sensors to detect whatever a human drive might, light vibrations, strange noises or smells. It can be dealt with. If it turns into a fire that could be a whole different story but a solution could be found.

All in all though, I see self driving as a tremendous benefit to our society but I don't deny that there will be bugs to work out. The stickiest bugs will be those deliberately caused by humans.

Groover

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Posted: 02/11/21 08:00am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Terryallan wrote:

What happens when the road isn't where it is supposed to be? Like in a construction zone where the road was moved over a few feet. I know. The car runs into the guard rail. Seen it happen.


Without local augmentation, which is the vast majority of the country, GPS is not accurate to a few feet. Even if it was there are things other than guard rails that move so all self driving cars have methods of detecting these things. Tesla has had a few cases where they failed to properly interpret stationary objects but there are far more cases where they have successfully driven on unmapped roads, just relying on their sensors to find the way.

Tesla and the competition are addressing issues as they come up and are making a lot of progress. My understand is that Tesla has done at least two complete re-writes of their software to address deficiencies in detection. These re-writes have moved them away from being data driven to operating more like humans and using live, real time observations for determining the best path. Unlike humans, they do have radar and other methods of detecting things that cannot be detected visually for even more complete information.

Even though the number of Teslas on the road is increasing rapidly I have not been hearing about FSD failures nearly as often as I used to. It seems to me that they are steadily getting better.

ksss

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Posted: 02/11/21 08:04am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.


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Posted: 02/11/21 08:07am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grover your last sentence says it all. There are brain dead people who work hard at finding cheats to overcome Tesla’s safety features of insuring you are awake and that you have a hand on the wheel. Hanging everything from water bottles and wrist weights, even oranges off the steering wheel so they can text while driving or whatever. And they work. A Tesla will happily drive for hours on the highway with no intervention and no supervision...even though it was not designed to do so. And then something goes wrong, there’s an accident and every body wants to blame Tesla. This will always happen and there will always be dumb people.

The Tesla system works kind of cool. People have been falling asleep at the wheel since cars have existed. If you have autopilot on (FSD not needed) and you fall asleep at the wheel the car will wait for an input on the wheel from you. If you don’t touch the wheel for x amount of time, it will start to nag you with visual and audible cues. If you still don’t respond it will pull over to the side of the road in a controlled manner and turn on the hazards.

Cool.

Reisender

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Posted: 02/11/21 08:17am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ksss wrote:

I would be curious how automation would deal with icy roads and heavy snow fall when the edges of the road cant be identified or sensors packed with snow and ice. I am sure they have a solution for this, but at times when you cant see the road and gps may not have road exactly laid out the way that it physically is, not sure how they automate that.


I can jump in here with my experiences with our Tesla. Quite simply if the Tesla loses reference because of snow or poor lines or whatever it just gives up, it lets the driver know to take over immediately and all is well. It’s a level 2 system so not a problem as the driver is supposed to constantly supervise and have a hand on the wheel. By the book FSD shouldn’t be used on gravel roads or snow covered roads but i have seen you tube vehicles of people doing that. As level 3 and level 4 systems show up it will have to improve.

There are lots of videos out there showing how the new FSD video deals with unexpected situations like ups vans in the middle of the street. The car realizes there is a stopped vehicle in the street, it will creep out, check for oncoming traffic and go slowly around in a creepily human fashion.

Times are a changing.

* This post was edited 02/11/21 08:24am by Reisender *

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