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 > Chevrolet exits all ICE production by 2035

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wnjj

Cornelius, Oregon

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Posted: 03/09/21 10:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RoyJ wrote:

Still don't see how an 80k lbs semi can go 600 miles on a 1,000 kWh pack.

It’s likely because power demand doesn’t go up directly with weight but rolling resistance. More weight means some more rolling resistance on the bearings and tires but mostly it costs you on hills, where a regenerative system pays you back on the downhills. In other words, an 80k semi doesn’t take 4x the power of a 20k RV.

time2roll

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Posted: 03/09/21 10:36pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RoyJ wrote:

Still don't see how an 80k lbs semi can go 600 miles on a 1,000 kWh pack.
The rubber will be hitting the road soon enough. Only then will we know.


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Groover

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Posted: 03/10/21 07:25am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RoyJ wrote:

https://tflcar.com/2019/08/tesla-model-x-towing-loop-adventure-x/

Here's TFL's Model X towing a 5k lbs horse trailer. At 25:50, 30 miles in, their cruising average is 896 Wh/mile. 3.7 times more power than empty. I've never seen an IC truck get 3.7x worse mpg with a 5000 lbs trailer, that's what happens when an EV is so efficienty to begin witt.

I'd guess an 18k lbs toy hauler is at least 2x that amount, or 1.8 kWh / mile. For a 300 mile day of travel, that's 540 kWh pack.

Still don't see how an 80k lbs semi can go 600 miles on a 1,000 kWh pack.


You have made some good observations and are hitting all around some of the answers to your questions without realizing it.

To begin with, a horse trailer doubles the fuel consumption of my 2016 F150. And that is with one that is relatively streamlined. A lot of trailers are not aerodynamic at all. Even those that are are not well matched with the tow vehicle in many cases. When my daughter replaced here bumper pull with a larger and heavier gooseneck trailer her fuel economy went up. I think that it because the gooseneck trailer is much closer to the cab and is better set up to stay in the slipstream of the truck. I can take that same bumper pull trailer and tow it behind my motorhome that is 12ft tall and 102inches wide and it has very little effect on fuel efficiency.

On that note, Tesla knows this well and is great with aerodynamics. Every picture that I have seen with a Tesla tractor pulling a trailer shows a combination that is well matched and equipped for low air drag. No toy haulers with external air conditioners, awnings, door handles, antennas and flat back end will be tolerated.

One of the largest air drags for ICE engines is cooling air. The Tesla semi just won't have that at all. What would have been cooling air will be very aerodynamically routed around the tractor. The power steering, AC compressor and air compressor will only run on demand instead of being driven all of the time. There will not be any fuel sucking exhaust filter regens. There won't be a massive cooling fan sucking 20hp when going up a hill. The oil pump will go away and the cooling pump will be much smaller. My neighbor tells me that 1/3 of his engine hours on his semi comes from idling while stopped. When a Tesla semi is stopped the only systems that will be running are some very efficient operator comfort items and, when needed, some LED lights.

Tesla is also going after rolling resistance by using super singles in place of duals, nearly cutting rolling resistance in half plus reducing air drag. Since the mechanical brakes will only be used very rarely Tesla might find a way a routing cooling air around them except when needed.

Reisender

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Posted: 03/10/21 07:57am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Groover wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

https://tflcar.com/2019/08/tesla-model-x-towing-loop-adventure-x/

Here's TFL's Model X towing a 5k lbs horse trailer. At 25:50, 30 miles in, their cruising average is 896 Wh/mile. 3.7 times more power than empty. I've never seen an IC truck get 3.7x worse mpg with a 5000 lbs trailer, that's what happens when an EV is so efficienty to begin witt.

I'd guess an 18k lbs toy hauler is at least 2x that amount, or 1.8 kWh / mile. For a 300 mile day of travel, that's 540 kWh pack.

Still don't see how an 80k lbs semi can go 600 miles on a 1,000 kWh pack.


You have made some good observations and are hitting all around some of the answers to your questions without realizing it.

To begin with, a horse trailer doubles the fuel consumption of my 2016 F150. And that is with one that is relatively streamlined. A lot of trailers are not aerodynamic at all. Even those that are are not well matched with the tow vehicle in many cases. When my daughter replaced here bumper pull with a larger and heavier gooseneck trailer her fuel economy went up. I think that it because the gooseneck trailer is much closer to the cab and is better set up to stay in the slipstream of the truck. I can take that same bumper pull trailer and tow it behind my motorhome that is 12ft tall and 102inches wide and it has very little effect on fuel efficiency.

On that note, Tesla knows this well and is great with aerodynamics. Every picture that I have seen with a Tesla tractor pulling a trailer shows a combination that is well matched and equipped for low air drag. No toy haulers with external air conditioners, awnings, door handles, antennas and flat back end will be tolerated.

One of the largest air drags for ICE engines is cooling air. The Tesla semi just won't have that at all. What would have been cooling air will be very aerodynamically routed around the tractor. The power steering, AC compressor and air compressor will only run on demand instead of being driven all of the time. There will not be any fuel sucking exhaust filter regens. There won't be a massive cooling fan sucking 20hp when going up a hill. The oil pump will go away and the cooling pump will be much smaller. My neighbor tells me that 1/3 of his engine hours on his semi comes from idling while stopped. When a Tesla semi is stopped the only systems that will be running are some very efficient operator comfort items and, when needed, some LED lights.

Tesla is also going after rolling resistance by using super singles in place of duals, nearly cutting rolling resistance in half plus reducing air drag. Since the mechanical brakes will only be used very rarely Tesla might find a way a routing cooling air around them except when needed.


Bunch of things I wouldn’t have thought in there light fans etc. Certainly the brakes though. We rarely use our brake pedal on our EV. It used to be in really cold weather the regen was pretty limited. But last week we got an over the air software update that really changed that. I had to go out in minus 5 yesterday morning and it was very obvious. Probably have to wait until next year to see what it’s like in minus 20 as those temps are behind us for this year. Woohoo. [emoticon].

Cheers.

blt2ski

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Posted: 03/10/21 11:05am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Groover hit a LOT of things being introduced to ICE rigs trying to get them more fuel efficient too. Some like lack of an open grill is an EV option only. But aerodynamics if the cab, trailer etc make a difference in fuel costs and worth the extra expenses for those driving rig 40-50k plus miles a year.
Even the bubbles on box vans can save a mile or two per gallon for local delivery rigs. Bagman who used to post here more often, had two volvo box vans, on with one with the basic aero pkg. The one with got a constant 1-2 mpg more. Yet otherwise identical setups.
Some of the rv delivery drivers have noted getting better mpg with a 500 lb heavier TT with smooth fiberglass walls vs light corrugated aluminum sided rigs. Non skid from dedroom 5w get best overall mpg's. Titanium's and airstreams are right behind them.
Super singles, get upwards of .5 mpg, along with a savings of up to 100 lbs of tire/rim wiegt, needs less hp to move those 18 tires. Then the can carry another upwards of a ton of paying cargo. That ton iv non moving cargo needs 1/10-1/20 the hp needed to move moving parts. Iirc it was BenK that mentioned on bicycles, a human notice two ounces of weight removed from a moving part, is rim, tire sprocket etc, vs it took two lbs off the frame to notice the weight reduction.
Like a lot of us, I'm not seeing being able to put EV's into 100% for everyone tomorrow due to lack of infrastructure among many things. I can see the potential for it down the road.

Marty


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RoyJ

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Posted: 03/10/21 12:14pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

wnjj wrote:

RoyJ wrote:

Still don't see how an 80k lbs semi can go 600 miles on a 1,000 kWh pack.

It’s likely because power demand doesn’t go up directly with weight but rolling resistance. More weight means some more rolling resistance on the bearings and tires but mostly it costs you on hills, where a regenerative system pays you back on the downhills. In other words, an 80k semi doesn’t take 4x the power of a 20k RV.


I definitely agree it's not linear, no where near 4x the power. But I also don't think is so non-linear that we can have:

- 900 Wh / mile for a 5,400 lbs Model X towing 4,600 lbs trailer
- 1667 Wh / mile for a 25,000 lbs semi towing 55,000 lbs trailer

In other words, only 85% increase in power, for 8x increase in GVW, and much larger frontal area.

The latter is what the Tesla semi needs to hit 600 miles on a 1000 kWh pack.

RoyJ

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Posted: 03/10/21 12:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Groover wrote:

You have made some good observations and are hitting all around some of the answers to your questions without realizing it.

To begin with, a horse trailer doubles the fuel consumption of my 2016 F150. And that is with one that is relatively streamlined. A lot of trailers are not aerodynamic at all. Even those that are are not well matched with the tow vehicle in many cases. When my daughter replaced here bumper pull with a larger and heavier gooseneck trailer her fuel economy went up. I think that it because the gooseneck trailer is much closer to the cab and is better set up to stay in the slipstream of the truck. I can take that same bumper pull trailer and tow it behind my motorhome that is 12ft tall and 102inches wide and it has very little effect on fuel efficiency.

On that note, Tesla knows this well and is great with aerodynamics. Every picture that I have seen with a Tesla tractor pulling a trailer shows a combination that is well matched and equipped for low air drag. No toy haulers with external air conditioners, awnings, door handles, antennas and flat back end will be tolerated.

One of the largest air drags for ICE engines is cooling air. The Tesla semi just won't have that at all. What would have been cooling air will be very aerodynamically routed around the tractor. The power steering, AC compressor and air compressor will only run on demand instead of being driven all of the time. There will not be any fuel sucking exhaust filter regens. There won't be a massive cooling fan sucking 20hp when going up a hill. The oil pump will go away and the cooling pump will be much smaller. My neighbor tells me that 1/3 of his engine hours on his semi comes from idling while stopped. When a Tesla semi is stopped the only systems that will be running are some very efficient operator comfort items and, when needed, some LED lights.

Tesla is also going after rolling resistance by using super singles in place of duals, nearly cutting rolling resistance in half plus reducing air drag. Since the mechanical brakes will only be used very rarely Tesla might find a way a routing cooling air around them except when needed.


All very good points. To be clear, in no way am I not admitting the benefits of electrification, I just don't believe you can make an economically viable long-haul tractor with only 1,000 kWh on-board. As in, if I am an owner-operator, I would not buy that over a $150k Freightliner as of 2021, because the amount of loads I'd have to turn down, the number of routes I'd be restricted to, and the types of trailers I can pull is too limited to make a profit (already very thin).

I will nit-pick a few things: cooling air is not a significant form of drag. Ram's grille shutters save 0.5 mpg (or 2.5%). I've also tested this with full winter grille cover, fuel savings are not even measurable. A/C and air compressors do not run all the time on IC engines. A/C drag is near 0 due to clutch, but the air compressor has a slight draw (6%.

Again, not saying EVs will never work for long haul, just that as of 2021, I can't see how an owner operator can be profitable with a 1,000 kWh EV tractor. And that's not even taking purchasing cost into account, which will be MUCH higher than a $150k Freightliner. In another 10 yrs, with 2,000 kWh packs, it'll start to become viable for selected hauling operations.

Reisender

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Posted: 03/10/21 12:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Is anybody actually developing a long haul yet? I know a couple of companies including Tesla are working on more of that medium range depot to depot thing. Has anybody gone down that long haul road yet?

lbrjet

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Posted: 03/10/21 04:37pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How is a truck stop going to be configured for EV? All trucks back into the spaces today.


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Posted: 03/10/21 05:22pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

lbrjet wrote:

How is a truck stop going to be configured for EV? All trucks back into the spaces today.


Why would it make a difference with electric...or hydrogen. Are you talking fueling or parking.

* This post was edited 03/10/21 06:25pm by Reisender *

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