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 > 3/4 or 1 ton SUV ?

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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 03/02/21 02:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Dadoffourgirls wrote:



It took about three years to saturate the market starting in 2001. Their sales continued to dwindle as a percentage of all full size SUVs for GM in 2007 (and it might have been the bumper tongue weight). I think you underestimate the cost of engineering, producing, and certifying a low-volume, short-lived demand vehicle.

Additionally, GM is constrained currently with plant capacity.


Regardless of your staunch defense of the van, which really is apples and oranges compared to a typical suv, you may be right, or otherwise someone smarter than us would have re-introduced them by now. Although there's rumors from last year GM will.

Personally they're not my thing. Id take a HD truck 10 times out of 9 for my use. But given the soaring sales of full size trucks and suvs, year by year it just seems strange that a HD suv platform wouldn't be successful once again. Considering, for 1 mfg, they would only need to steal less than 5% of the overall market share of current full size suvs and trucks to sell some comparable quantities to other vehicle models.

Big part of the previous demise was likely similar capabilities as less expensive half ton SUVs (the whole world doesn't think like rvnet where you need more truck than necessary to get the job done) and generally no diesel offering or at least no good diesel offering after 2003 and none after 05 or whenever the Excursion died.
It would be a huge step back for many HD truck owners to get a gasser HD suv for towing unless they absolutely needed the seating.

* This post was edited 03/02/21 02:36pm by Grit dog *


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Gator398

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Posted: 03/02/21 08:28pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Three years ago we pulled a 5x8 enclosed trailer with our 9 passenger 2012 GMC Savana explorer van, 3 adults and 4 kids and cargo trailer usually at about 3k lbs. We had brake rotors replaced every 3 trips or so, whenever the braking vibration would get unbearable. The 6.0 motor was good enough for this but would not be enough for a TT in tow, and I could not imagine what the wind blowing it around would feel like as that was pretty unbearable at times as well.. When the A/C in the van started blowing warm was the final straw and we will never go back to a motor crammed into a compartment again (that includes bus/Class A). Be smart and buy a tow vehicle with a real hood and built stout enough for pulling AND braking. The '05 Excursion is the last real option for passenger hauling +trailer, if you can get over the late 90's interior and features for what people selling them wish they were worth. Maybe, thanks to coronavirus and the resurrection of road travel mixed with the collapse of the cruise industry, we may finally see the return of the true HD diesel powered 3/4t and 1ton SUV, not the thing Nissan has right now that is a towing joke. I imagine if Ford (for example) makes a long wheel base 2022 Excursion-Max with 7.4L gas, they wouldn't be able to build them fast enough for all of the RV's out there being piddled along with terrible tow vehicles.

EDIT: I forgot to add that we bought a 26' 6200# (loaded) TT and pulled it a couple times with our 2017 Infiniti QX80 4x4. Its 5.6 motor did surprisingly well, better than the 6.0 van, but could also be the better transmission with it. But the rear end was too squishy unfortunately and was so obviously overloaded at the tongue with the equalizer 4-point sway WDH, anything off interstate was like gambling whether staying at speed limit was possible (due to rear end dipping and rocking at higher speeds). It's been traded for a choppy ridin' dually truck that won't break under pressure.

* This post was edited 03/02/21 08:37pm by Gator398 *


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RoyJ

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Posted: 03/02/21 09:05pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Grit dog wrote:

Personally they're not my thing. Id take a HD truck 10 times out of 9 for my use. But given the soaring sales of full size trucks and suvs, year by year it just seems strange that a HD suv platform wouldn't be successful once again. Considering, for 1 mfg, they would only need to steal less than 5% of the overall market share of current full size suvs and trucks to sell some comparable quantities to other vehicle models.


Like I was saying before, they're probably afraid of cannibalizing their own HD truck sales.

If someone truly needed a Suburban 2500 or Excursion, they would've already bought a 2500/F250. The only alternative would be a Suburban 1500 or Expedition EL, but that's still cannibalism.

How do they win over new buyers into the HD SUV market, that would've otherwise bought something completely different? i.e. your Highlander / Atlas / other large crossover buyer are not cross shopping 3/4 ton SUVs.

Mickeyfan0805

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Posted: 03/03/21 07:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

APT wrote:


100% Agreed. It would be a challenge to convince my wife to drive a full sized passenger van compared to any modern (<20yr old) SUV.


The HD van was a non-starter with DW. All practical considerations aside, it simply wasn't ever going to happen!

Seon

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Posted: 03/03/21 07:43am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I replaced my 2007 Yukon XL SLT 4x4 with a 2010 Ford E350 Van with 55k original miles to tow my 6K travel trailer. Really loved the Yukon but DW likes to bring lots and lots of "stuff" plus 3 dogs and their crates when camping so I needed the Van space to carry them.
The Van doesn't have the bells and whistle that the Yukon had but it's a tow vehicle and a Home Depot run.
Having the right tool for the job is what counts.

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 03/03/21 10:11am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RoyJ wrote:

Grit dog wrote:

Personally they're not my thing. Id take a HD truck 10 times out of 9 for my use. But given the soaring sales of full size trucks and suvs, year by year it just seems strange that a HD suv platform wouldn't be successful once again. Considering, for 1 mfg, they would only need to steal less than 5% of the overall market share of current full size suvs and trucks to sell some comparable quantities to other vehicle models.


Like I was saying before, they're probably afraid of cannibalizing their own HD truck sales.

If someone truly needed a Suburban 2500 or Excursion, they would've already bought a 2500/F250. The only alternative would be a Suburban 1500 or Expedition EL, but that's still cannibalism.

How do they win over new buyers into the HD SUV market, that would've otherwise bought something completely different? i.e. your Highlander / Atlas / other large crossover buyer are not cross shopping 3/4 ton SUVs.


For sure. 99% of the market would come from existing full-size truck and suv buyers. No doubt.
How to win over new buyers? Make something new that people want.
Offer a real diesel like Ford did for a few years, not the underpowered whiny 6.0 Vortec.
Offer something that people want to be seen in. Doesn’t take much. (My new work truck just because it has a 2” lift, mudders, decent looking wheels and some cool stickers and painted tow hooks has got more random complements in a week than my previous work truck which was essentially the same but not “off road.”)

Take the new Burb body, which looks killer btw, toss it on a HD chassis, give it a little lift and some bling and a 5” tailpipe that begets the fire breathing diesel under the hood and watch all the guys “justify” this for their wife’s next soccermobile that also pull their boat and camper 10x a year! Put a cool looking roof rack on it and offer an attachment for a hi lift jack and some rotopax jugs. People be mall crawlin in them just like the Jeep’s, in no time. Added benefit, those that have a real need for one now have their next family truckster tow rig back, which is what this thread was all about.
How many people “have to have” a big diesel truck that don’t need one? Answer? Most of them. Myself included.
How many wives want a fancy SUV to drive through the Starbucks in? Answer? Most of them. (Well, not the liberal ones....different topic).

Grit dog

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Posted: 03/03/21 10:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

For those that think “who can afford/buy a $80-90k suv?” Get over it. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you.
He!! I think GMC sells more Denali's than regular trucks anymore.
I can think of a half dozen guys, just in our circle of people that are driving diesel Denali’s and don’t haul anything other than their fat @ss to the office or a load of beauty bark for the flower beds.
Make em tough looking. Some rock slider looking running boards and a ladder on the rear barn door.
And offer a Denali type version for those that want a 1000ft lb Escalade.

They’ll sell. And at the same or higher profit margin than trucks.

I bet theyd sell 50,000 of them a year just in Texas!!

ktosv

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Posted: 03/03/21 10:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Gator398 wrote:

Three years ago we pulled a 5x8 enclosed trailer with our 9 passenger 2012 GMC Savana explorer van, 3 adults and 4 kids and cargo trailer usually at about 3k lbs. We had brake rotors replaced every 3 trips or so, whenever the braking vibration would get unbearable. The 6.0 motor was good enough for this but would not be enough for a TT in tow, and I could not imagine what the wind blowing it around would feel like as that was pretty unbearable at times as well.. When the A/C in the van started blowing warm was the final straw and we will never go back to a motor crammed into a compartment again (that includes bus/Class A). Be smart and buy a tow vehicle with a real hood and built stout enough for pulling AND braking. The '05 Excursion is the last real option for passenger hauling +trailer, if you can get over the late 90's interior and features for what people selling them wish they were worth. Maybe, thanks to coronavirus and the resurrection of road travel mixed with the collapse of the cruise industry, we may finally see the return of the true HD diesel powered 3/4t and 1ton SUV, not the thing Nissan has right now that is a towing joke. I imagine if Ford (for example) makes a long wheel base 2022 Excursion-Max with 7.4L gas, they wouldn't be able to build them fast enough for all of the RV's out there being piddled along with terrible tow vehicles.


Did you buy your van used? How many miles were on it when you had all of these issues? It appears it was a conversion van, which could have added a ton of weight if it was a high top. Are you sure you had the 6.0L and not the 4.8L?

At 70k miles I still had the factory pads and rotors on our Express. It hauled my family of 7 and two dogs perfectly fine while towing a 33’ 7200# GVWR trailer. I CAT scaled it once and I was over15k pounds, but under the 16k GCWR. When traveling with our dogs and we would make a stop somewhere, we would leave it idling with the AC on for them, sometimes for over an hour if not two. It would be a meat locker when we came back to the van. I

If you think the 2005 Excursion was the last vehicle made for towing and hauling, you must not be aware that GM made the 3/4 ton Suburban through the 2013 MY and we all know the Suburbans actually had a higher payload than an Excursion, thus actually making it the better tow vehicle.


Kevin and my...
Wife and six kids
2017 Suburban (5.3L/6A/3.08)
6x12 Enclosed Utility

Sold...2011 Express 3500 (6.0L/6A/3.42)
Sold...2010 Passport Ultra Lite 2910

Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 03/03/21 11:30am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

ktosv wrote:

Gator398 wrote:

Three years ago we pulled a 5x8 enclosed trailer with our 9 passenger 2012 GMC Savana explorer van, 3 adults and 4 kids and cargo trailer usually at about 3k lbs. We had brake rotors replaced every 3 trips or so, whenever the braking vibration would get unbearable.




If you think the 2005 Excursion was the last vehicle made for towing and hauling, you must not be aware that GM made the 3/4 ton Suburban through the 2013 MY and we all know the Suburbans actually had a higher payload than an Excursion, thus actually making it the better tow vehicle.


Agree, Gator had some unique "issues" with his van, but the general sentiment is the same. If you want basic bare bones transportation that can haul your best attempt at producing an entire soccer team from your own loins and get a trailer down the road, all at the lowest reasonable cost per mile for a vehicle, then a Van is your only option (and likely will continue to be because new SUVs are 'spensive).

But, "Suburbans actually had a higher payload than an Excursion, thus actually making it the better tow vehicle" is a pretty broad brush and almost wholly inaccurate statement.
Just because some people live and die by the almighty "door sticker" does not mean that they are right, nor does it a tow vehicle make.
One could go on for pages as to what makes a particular vehicle a better tow vehicle than another and the number of considerations (not including the highly variable considerations that come with comparing a 10-30 year old vehicle to a 15-20 year old vehicle) is lengthy.

For instance a 6.0 Powerstroke, torqshift Excursion will pull better than a 6.0 LS, 6L80E Suburban with the same gearing. The Burb will have better grade braking, but you can add an exhaust brake to a Stroke.
Torqshift trans is better than the 6L80, even lacking 1 forward gear comparatively.
Frame, chassis, axles, brakes, all the stuff that is germane to payload capability, (notice I didn't say rating, as thats just a math calculation that is really not even loosely based on the vehicle's actual capability when talking class 2 vehicles) are not even remotely taxed near their real world ratings or limits in a class 2 SUV configuration. So because the Explursion was a few lbs fatter than a Burb means basically nothing.

BenK

SF BayArea

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Posted: 03/03/21 12:58pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

GM discontinued the 3500HD Suburban in 2019.

Too bad, but it didn't have much of a MTWR

Fashion Statement Crowd drives SUV sales and they have no clue as to the difference between a 1500 & 2500. Plus the misconception that the 2500 rides harsher...


-Ben Picture of my rig
1996 GMC SLT Suburban 3/4 ton K3500/7.4L/4:1/+150Kmiles orig owner...
1980 Chevy Silverado C10/long bed/"BUILT" 5.7L/3:73/1 ton helper springs/+329Kmiles, bought it from dad...
1998 Mazda B2500 (1/2 ton) pickup, 2nd owner...
Praise Dyno Brake equiped and all have "nose bleed" braking!
Previous trucks/offroaders: 40's Jeep restored in mid 60's / 69 DuneBuggy (approx +1K lb: VW pan/200hpCorvair: eng, cam, dual carb'w velocity stacks'n 18" runners, 4spd transaxle) made myself from ground up / 1970 Toyota FJ40 / 1973 K5 Blazer (2dr Tahoe, 1 ton axles front/rear, +255K miles when sold it)...
Sold the boat (looking for another): Trophy with twin 150's...
51 cylinders in household, what's yours?...

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