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rlw999

Washington State

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Posted: 03/05/21 03:18pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

1492 wrote:

sch911 wrote:



Latency is not an issue, period.


May not be for an internet user, but latency is a big concern for businesses. Amazon has said their research indicates they lose $160 million in sales annually for every 100 milliseconds (0.1 sec) of latency. The reason Amazon AWS is so focused on keeping it to a minimum.


That's not quite what the Amazon study said, they said that they could lose $1.6B for every second of additional web page load time. It's hard to find the primary source for this, I've only found articles that report on it, but none link to the original study. That can't really be extrapolated back to say that they'd lose $160M for 100msec of latency.

But this is irrelevant for the Starlink use case since Starlink is not meant to host business webpages. For the average internet user, latency (within reason) is not that relevant. For me, 50-60msec is fine for interactive use (i.e. connecting to remote servers over SSH or RDP). Online gamers are also latency sensitive and like latencies under 100msec.

But for the average user that's doing streaming or web browsing, even 100msec isn't that noticeable. Traditional satellite latency of 500msec or more is where things start getting noticeable and annoying. I used to maintain servers over a 64kbit Viasat connection and that was an exercise in patience, I could sometimes type entire command lines before I'd see it echoed back.

Bill.Satellite

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Posted: 03/05/21 05:38pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I just love this $hip! Everyone using the business claims as fact and speculation taken to the extreme. Believe everything that comes from Elon or his crew? Not a chance! Is it possible that sometime in the near future (2 years or so) Starlink might provide "reasonable service at a reasonable price" to a substantially larger portion of the US than it can today? You bet ya! Covering the Planet with service without interruption as the business plan espouses is many years away.


What I post is my 2 cents and nothing more. Please don't read anything into my post that's not there. If you disagree, that's OK.
Can't we all just get along?

pnichols

The Other California

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Posted: 03/05/21 08:50pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

DarkSkySeeker wrote:

I entered my name on the Starlink website way back last year. Then in early February, I received an email stating I could order a unit. I ordered mine on February 8 and it came February 28 (I live about an hour north of San Francisco).

If you watch any of the dozens of Starlink unboxing Youtube videos, the setup is exactly as people show. The speeds are good.

Over the course of the first 24 hours, the Starlink dish reports whether or not it detects obstructions. Mine does not detect obstructions. Despite that, the real time data shown in the app, shows occasional obstructions for 10-20 seconds every few minutes. I also frequently see "beta downtime" and "no satellites". Apparently this is when the satellites out of view or busy receiving updates.

The graph below is automatically collected by the router. The pink zones indicate "obstructions". If the pink region was yellow, the indication is "no satellites". When gray, "beta downtime". Over the last 24 hours, the total obstruction time for my dish is 5 minutes. 2 minutes for no satellites, and 5 minutes for beta downtime.

[image]

During the beta downtime, obstructions, or no satellites, there is no response. Your signal is lost. If you are gaming or working with an editor doing coding, you will be disappointed during the downtime. If you are Youtubing or watching Netflix, the buffering in those services is usually good enough to span the downtime.

Most of the Starlink media news is that things will get better as satellites are added with each launch.

The incredible speeds shown on the Youtube videos occurs when you are standing right next to the Starlink router. In my home, the router is 30 feet away and the signal passes through the floor of my living room. In my case, this cuts the bandwidth down from 100 Mbps to about 40 Mbps.

I spent a few days moving the dish around, looking for the best view of the sky. Eventually, I put the dish up on a flagpole I bought at Harbor freight. The dish "peeks" up over the edge of my roofline. This turned out to be the best spot where no trees were in the way. The app helps with this.


What are the user adjustable output parameters of the Starlink router to it's clients?

Is it a dual output frequency router ... broadcasting to local clients on both the 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands? If it is, definitely set clients (desktops, laptops, smartphones, etc.) that are furthest away or behind the heaviest obstructions to connect to the router using the 2.4GHz band. Clients close to the router can be connected using either output band.

Lower frequency bands have greater range ... that's just the physics of radio frequency transmissions. Higher frequency bands can transmit more data streams at the same time, but not as far.

I have the clients on our router using both of it's broadcast bands, depending upon how far away they are from the router. One of the clients is about 100 feet away, with two room walls and a parked RV between it and the router. I have that person on the 2.4GHz band so they can work from home via Zoom meetings and of course stream entertainment in the evenings. They have no buffering during their use while connected to the router's 2.4GHz broadcast band.

The close clients are all on the router's 5GHz band and surf the Internet, stream HD videos, and stream 4K videos with no buffering.

The above applies to the output broadcasting from the router. Of course it must have high enough input data bandwidth and transmission speeds from the Internet service provider (i.e. via cable or satellites). I see a lot of forum discussions concerning Internet speeds coming into modems, but very little discussion on what router output bands work best to deliver the best performance to specific clients being fed from the router.

* This post was edited 03/06/21 10:54am by pnichols *


Phil, 2005 E450 Itasca Spirit 24V

pconroy328

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Posted: 03/06/21 11:23am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"latency" now needs to be defined in the context you're in. It used to measure packet delays in a packet switched network for example, and had little to do with page load times.

I don't know exactly how the speed test apps measure latency but it's reasonable to assume the timer starts when the initial IP packet is launched and stops when the ACK is received from the server.

From sheer physics along, those Starlink sats are closer to the earth that the Hughes sats. You'd expect a lower latency numbers - all else being equal - simply because the distance is shorter; the electrons/photons have less to travel.

So many other factors can affect latency, arguing about whether a value is good or bad is a little silly.

In the end, we do care about page load times or a fast enough stream to hold a VoIP session.

Starlink is NOT for everyone. If you've got decent internet now, keep it and stay off Starlink.

1492

Arlington, VA

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Posted: 03/06/21 02:33pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

rlw999 wrote:

1492 wrote:

sch911 wrote:



Latency is not an issue, period.


May not be for an internet user, but latency is a big concern for businesses. Amazon has said their research indicates they lose $160 million in sales annually for every 100 milliseconds (0.1 sec) of latency. The reason Amazon AWS is so focused on keeping it to a minimum.


That's not quite what the Amazon study said, they said that they could lose $1.6B for every second of additional web page load time.

You're quoting an article? What I posted was taken directly from Amazon AWS training staff the last time I was invited to their VA temp offices, while their new HQ2 building are constructed in Arlington, VA. The math works out the same in any case?

I'm sure I could get a copy of that study from our AWS rep. assigned to us.

1492

Arlington, VA

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Posted: 03/06/21 02:55pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

time2roll wrote:

1492 wrote:

sch911 wrote:

Latency is not an issue, period.
May not be for an internet user, but latency is a big concern for businesses. Amazon has said their research indicates they lose $160 million in sales annually for every 100 milliseconds (0.1 sec) of latency. The reason Amazon AWS is so focused on keeping it to a minimum.
Compared to what? The Federal incentives are to cover the many rural people operating at dialup speeds or no access. This has to be a vast improvement.

I agree with you that it's needed. Our head of IT support in my office is in that situation. And we're all working from home now. The only internet access he can get where he lives is DSL. So Starlink would be a huge improvement for him. Even faster than my internet connection, and I'm located in a major urban center.

robatthelake

Vancouver Island

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Posted: 03/06/21 05:04pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

At this point this isn’t a consideration for an active RVer! With restrictions on the ground unit being in in a stationary permanent location.


Rob & Jean
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MikeDupont

TX

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Posted: 03/07/21 07:18am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dkilley wrote:

I am holding out till they get a version that I can use in my RV.
https://www.teslarati.com/starlink-moving-vehicles-tesla-fcc-application/

Currently, the home stations are geoblocked so that the system doesnt overload if too many people move into a small area. As the satellite network fills out, that will go away.

DarkSkySeeker

Freestone, California

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Posted: 03/07/21 12:48pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Merrykalia wrote:

One of our local school systems are using it to extend internet services to some of their students who live in very rural, mountainous areas of our county. According to our technology director, it's working well. These are residences that don't move, so...

Reread my post. I was not concerned with latency. I was concerned with the obstructions, no satellite, and beta downtimes and instability.


There is something special about camping in an RV.
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justme

USA

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Posted: 03/07/21 01:40pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The reason latency is important is when the data packets are small where acknowledgement from the server is required and the difference between 10ms and 150ms would slow the overall data transmission to a crawl-- I measured the download from a VPN server on Hughes net that had a latency over 150ms that was no better than a 56K modem. That same server on my Verizon with a ping of 30ms was over 18mbs during a high traffic period. BTY gaming would be a problem as well with high latency.

* This post was edited 03/07/21 01:51pm by justme *

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