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Grit dog

Black Diamond, WA

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Posted: 04/02/21 08:34am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

^Agreed.
But rvnet members often never let a good opportunity to complain pass them by either.

There ARE issues with pandemic policy, but this is not one of them.
Being against this is like saying they shouldn’t reserve or charge for campsites but just let people “camp” everywhere....I mean, can’t see any harm inthat.


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time2roll

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Posted: 04/02/21 08:35am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dodge guy wrote:

I’ll repeat my response to the RMNP thread.

This is a bad idea. These are our NP's! We should be able to go when we want! we were in CO last year and trying to get in RMNP was terrible because of the timed entry. We ended up with a 3:00 entry. And they are charging to get the timed entry. Hopefully this practice will stop.
Everything has a capacity, everything has a limit. Do we just overrun the National Parks until they are just a fully paved parking lot?


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BarryG20

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Posted: 04/02/21 08:50am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

We have been to Zion many times over the years. I can remember pre shuttle and the sometimes hard time to find a parking spot. Then it got to the point of you could hardly find a parking spot at any trailhead. Then they instituted the mandatory shuttle you were no longer allowed to drive down the main canyon. We do canyoneering and as such have to haul a fair amount of gear. I thought the mandatory shuttle was going to be a major pita. In the end I had changed my mind. We no longer had to wait for parking spaces at the trailheads we used, the shuttle ran very frequently never had to wait more than 10 minutes. Yes we got more than a few strange looks and comments , why are carrying rope, are we supposed to where helmets in the park stuff like that. Then a few years ago I took my son with me to Zion as he hadn't been there since he was little and it had been several years for myself as well. First it took us 45 minutes to get a parking spot. Then we had to wait over 90 minutes to get on the shuttle and they were coming every 10 minutes or less. We almost left. However I thought let me go check with the a ranger and see what the deal is these days. She told me this normal but once we got out of the visitor center that it wouldn't be a problem. Well she was wrong. The shuttles were packed. If you got off at a stop you couldn't hardly get back on, you might have to wait for 3,4 or 5 shuttles before you could get back on, no it wasn't 90+ minutes but it might be 30 minutes. We got down to the Virgin River Narrows one of my previously favorite hikes there. It was unbelievable. The paved part of the trail was one constant line of people the entire way to the end of the pavement. Previous times we had hiked that not that it wasn't somewhat busy but this was crazy. Then we used to hike up the canyon 4 or 5 miles after the first 500 yards the people would thin out and after a mile or so you would find very few people and most of the time it was like you were the only one there. This time it was like we were at a water park. We went up about 2.5 miles and there were still at least a hundred people in view at all times. Not to mention their behavior and trash, plastic water bottles floating down the river, trash everywhere waiting for the next big rain to wash it all downstream. I was so disappointed. And for the first time in my life I thought it might be a good idea to limit park admittance. I had heard grumblings about lotteries etc and had previously always been against them, not so sure I am against them now.

I have found this to be the case at Bryce, Grand Canyon, Canyonlands, Arches and even in some of at least what used to be considered remote places like Cedar Mesa or the Escalante area where you could go for days without seeing anyone now required permits, max people per day, no places to park at those areas.

I realized the parks were not there for my personal enjoyment but for all peoples enjoyment however in many areas it is no longer enjoyable, yes the scenery is still great assuming you can overlook the crowds in front of you but it is no longer "getting away" it is more like an amusement park.


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naturist

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Posted: 04/02/21 09:12am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

dodge guy wrote:

This is a bad idea. These are our NP's! We should be able to go when we want! we were in CO last year and trying to get in RMNP was terrible because of the timed entry. We ended up with a 3:00 entry. And they are charging to get the timed entry. Hopefully this practice will stop.


Yes, they are "our" parks, and yes, we should be able to go whenever/wherever we want. But there are way too many of "us" and way too little of "them." Each of these places are worth a visit BECAUSE they are wild and unspoiled and beautiful and rugged, etc. But a seething wall-to-wall mass of human beings is none of those things, and unfettered access to the hordes seeking to visit these places results in the complete destruction of the very values those places have.

Sadly, not everyone CAN visit, especially not at the same time. Not and have there remain any reason to go there in the first place.

When we visited Glacier NP ten years ago, Going To The Sun Road was a major traffic jam. Seriously, it was bumper-to-bumper all the way up, then all the way back down as well. It was nigh impossible to stop at any of the waypoints because they were all packed full of cars already, with crowds milling about aimlessly at each. And it's gotten worse since then, and spread to many other NPs.

So, no, @Dodgeguy, it's not a bad idea to limit access in any of several ways. And yes indeed, those practices are going to continue for the foreseeable future; get used to it. If they don't, it won't be long until you won't want to go, there being nothing left to see.





bgum

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Posted: 04/02/21 10:48am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am sure that this will get a warm reception: It has been suggested that usa citizens or at least usa residents have unrestricted entry but noncitizens have ticketed entry.

FWC

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Posted: 04/02/21 11:13am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Besides the obvious xenophobia, I am not sure how this would even address the issue. Over the last year there have been near zero foreign visitors, yet the crowds have been worse than ever.


bgum wrote:

I am sure that this will get a warm reception: It has been suggested that usa citizens or at least usa residents have unrestricted entry but noncitizens have ticketed entry.


naturist

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Posted: 04/02/21 01:52pm Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

In contrast to our visit to Glacier NP ten years ago, which I posted about above, was our visit to Denali NP in Alaska in June of 2019. For those who have never been there, you can't just drive in and wander around. Although the park is vast, one of the larger ones in the world, you can only drive into the edge of the park. From there, getting into the interior of the park requires a shuttle bus ride. The longest bus trip into the park, that takes you as close to the mountain itself, is an approximately 10 hour round trip.

In contrast to the ride up Going To The Sun Road, the trip into Denali NP did not amount to a traffic jam, and we did not see the sights over the heads of packed hordes. We got to see the native fauna still in the wild. They hadn't been chased around by idiots with cameras or screaming kids wanting to pet them, so they were cautious of the bus and people, but not terrorized by them/us either. We saw moose, caribou, bears, not to mention the completely untouched tundra and rivers and flora of central Alaska. The experience was sublime, and I'm grateful for being able to see it. We left only tire/foot prints and took only photographs, so if YOU get to go there one day, there is a good chance you too will be able to see the wilds of Alaska as I have.

When you come back, you will have a much better sense of what we have already lost from the experience of Yellowstone, Glacier, Zion, and other national parks and wild places, as well as the destruction that unfettered access causes.

JIMNLIN

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Posted: 04/03/21 07:55am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

good post.
In my lifetime of 80 years I can remembers places visited in the 1950's that were natural.
Visiting the same places the last 10 years makes me very glad I saw them before the packed hordes tromped it all and state commercial development was allowed to build actual arcades for kids. What the state of CO has done with the Royal Gorge Bridge comes to mind. I'm glad I was their before it was ruined.


"good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment" ............ Will Rogers

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Posted: 04/03/21 08:01am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am not sure the 'state of CO' has done anything to Royal Gorge Bridge - it is a privately owned tourist trap.

Thermoguy

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Posted: 04/03/21 09:42am Link  |  Quote  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I think it is a good idea. We visited Glacier last summer. Basically drove over and back, no where to park...

I think we found 2 times where we could park but neither had hiking trails from that point so people only got out, took some pictures and drove off. Most of the roadside parking is full by early morning and you are lucky to get a spot. If you don't stick around, then you move on and might not find another place to park. We did decide we wanted to hike to a lake, so on our 3rd day, got up really early and went and found what seemed like the last spot. The trail was very overcrowded and we wore masks almost the entire hike due to people coming the other way the entire route.

We went to Zion this winter, the shuttle system isn't perfect, but you get a reservation, show up, get on a bus, get in the park, then it works great. We made 3 stops, hiked, enjoyed, then took the bus back to the main shuttle stop. I don't need to go back, but it was easy and didn't have to fight traffic the entire drive up and back.

Glacier was nice, but other areas of the country are just as nice and are not so crowded...

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