Pinging

[fourthclassC]

Howdy, 02 Ford V10 with 90 k miles. Noticed some pinging under hard acceleration. Tried a tank of premium gas - still there. Wondering if any one has had any experience in changing the Knock Sensors on that engine in a class C. Located under intake manifold and wondering if they can be reached with out removing manifold because of the rear access to the engine when the dog house is removed. Thank s to all who reply.
Jack

[Dave_H_M]

If it were mine, I would pay the freight to get a FORD computer hoked up to it. Why not start there first?

[Gjac]

I would check the timing first and see if the base line timing is correct. If correct I would then check the knock sensor.

[ScottG]

Chum lee wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

I understand your post but respectfully disagree. In both cases the root cause is heat in the wrong place and both causes and results are characterized in the trade school text books we used as knocking, pinging, etc. and much of this was from manufacturers. They weren't the product of any one persons opinion.
In the OP's case that could be caused by anything from an EGR valve to a sensor to mechanical damage.
What ever the case, none of this is helping the OP at all.

Thank you for your response. I'm not talking about "trade schools" or, information from "the manufacturer." I'm talking about information from the highest level "engineering schools" which I graduated from. (with highest honors) There is a difference in the curriculum.

I agree that the problem here is heat related. What's causing it, and, how to fix it is the issue.

Please, . . . read the book I referenced.

Chum lee

Sorry but your book doesn't trump my schooling, associated text books and lifetime of experience. You think I don't understand your point - I do but is disagree with assigning what are generic terms to be specific references.
And we're still revolving around someones ego rather than helping the OP.

Oh for God's sake, IT'S NOT MY BOOK, IT'S A READILY ACCEPTED/ACCREDITED TEXTBOOK FOR MECHANICAL ENGINEERING STUDENTS. (CLEARLY, THAT'S NOT YOU) Your schooling is what it is. Mine is what it is.

Go waste someone else's time.

Chum lee

THERE'S the Chum Lee I expected LOL. :B

[Chum_lee]

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

I understand your post but respectfully disagree. In both cases the root cause is heat in the wrong place and both causes and results are characterized in the trade school text books we used as knocking, pinging, etc. and much of this was from manufacturers. They weren't the product of any one persons opinion.
In the OP's case that could be caused by anything from an EGR valve to a sensor to mechanical damage.
What ever the case, none of this is helping the OP at all.

Thank you for your response. I'm not talking about "trade schools" or, information from "the manufacturer." I'm talking about information from the highest level "engineering schools" which I graduated from. (with highest honors) There is a difference in the curriculum.

I agree that the problem here is heat related. What's causing it, and, how to fix it is the issue.

Please, . . . read the book I referenced.

Chum lee

Sorry but your book doesn't trump my schooling, associated text books and lifetime of experience. You think I don't understand your point - I do but is disagree with assigning what are generic terms to be specific references.
And we're still revolving around someones ego rather than helping the OP.

Oh for God's sake, IT'S NOT MY BOOK, IT'S A READILY ACCEPTED/ACCREDITED TEXTBOOK FOR MECHANICAL ENGINEERING STUDENTS. (CLEARLY, THAT'S NOT YOU) Your schooling is what it is. Mine is what it is.

Go waste someone else's time.

Chum lee

[ScottG]

Chum lee wrote:

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

I understand your post but respectfully disagree. In both cases the root cause is heat in the wrong place and both causes and results are characterized in the trade school text books we used as knocking, pinging, etc. and much of this was from manufacturers. They weren't the product of any one persons opinion.
In the OP's case that could be caused by anything from an EGR valve to a sensor to mechanical damage.
What ever the case, none of this is helping the OP at all.

Thank you for your response. I'm not talking about "trade schools" or, information from "the manufacturer." I'm talking about information from the highest level "engineering schools" which I graduated from. (with highest honors) There is a difference in the curriculum.

I agree that the problem here is heat related. What's causing it, and, how to fix it is the issue.

Please, . . . read the book I referenced.

Chum lee

Sorry but your book doesn't trump my schooling, associated text books and lifetime of experience. You think I don't understand your point - I do but is disagree with assigning what are generic terms to be specific references.
And we're still revolving around someones ego rather than helping the OP.

[Chum_lee]

ScottG wrote:

Chum lee wrote:
ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

I understand your post but respectfully disagree. In both cases the root cause is heat in the wrong place and both causes and results are characterized in the trade school text books we used as knocking, pinging, etc. and much of this was from manufacturers. They weren't the product of any one persons opinion.
In the OP's case that could be caused by anything from an EGR valve to a sensor to mechanical damage.
What ever the case, none of this is helping the OP at all.

Thank you for your response. I'm not talking about "trade schools" or, information from "the manufacturer." I'm talking about information from the highest level "engineering schools" which I graduated from. (with highest honors) There is a difference in the curriculum.

I agree that the problem here is heat related. What's causing it, and, how to fix it is the issue.

Please, . . . read the book I referenced.

Chum lee

[ScottG]

Chum lee wrote:
ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

I understand your post but respectfully disagree. In both cases the root cause is heat in the wrong place and both causes and results are characterized in the trade school text books we used as knocking, pinging, etc. and much of this was from manufacturers. They weren't the product of any one persons opinion.
In the OP's case that could be caused by anything from an EGR valve to a sensor to mechanical damage.
What ever the case, none of this is helping the OP at all.

[wing_zealot]

Well said Scott.

[jaycocreek]

Do a Google search on Ford V-10 pinging,there's a ton of post and other people with the same issue..

[fourthclassC]

Ok. Interesting comment about HVAC control vac leak. Just fixed the vents not opening when the AC was on. Likely to be related. Also will bang on the cat con. to check.

Again thanks for all the help.

[Chum_lee]

ScottG wrote:

"Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else."

Not really. (I'm with Gdetrailer here) Clearly pre-ignition and detonation can have similar symptoms/effects, but, their origins are different.

Forget Wikipedia, I suggest you obtain/read a copy of "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals 2E" by John Heywood, 2019 edition. The above is a college level required textbook for most accredited Mechanical Engineering Programs/students. Reviewing some Schlieren photography of active internal combustion chambers would also be helpful.

To the OP, you can check your catalytic converter by tapping it lightly (when cold) with a soft mallet. If it sounds like marbles rattling in a tin can, . . . . you need a new one.

Chum lee

[ScottG]

Gdetrailer wrote:

ScottG wrote:
Knocking and pinging explained: Detonation

I would not shoot the messenger.

"Wiki"? Yeah, take that with a grain of salt..

No, I am not "shooting the messenger" but here are very distinct sound differences between Pinging and knocking.

While both can be filed under "predetination" pinging is a much "lighter" sound and "knocking" has a much deeper sound which can be confused with things like connecting rod issues.

Pinging is more often caused by excessive spark advance with high compression and too low grade octane of fuel. Reducing the spark advance or increasing octane level typically fixes that.

Knock however is predetonation caused more by too much compression, too much heat in the cylinder, hot spots or carbon buildup (carbon creates hot spots igniting the fuel before it should.. Knock under this situation is not "controllable" much by reduction in spark advance but is more controlled by engine temps.

While THIS website doesn't fully explain the differences in sound between ping and knock they do mention..

"So, spark knock (detonation) is an erratic form of combustion; that occurs when multiple flame fronts occur simultaneously inside a combustion chamber. Detonation occurs, because fuel is subjected to either too much pressure, too much heat or both.

So, instead of a single flame front growing outward smoothly; like an expanding balloon from the point of ignition; multiple flame fronts are generated spontaneously throughout the combustion chamber; as the fuel automatically ignites from heat and pressure. Finally, the multiple flame fronts collide, creating shock waves that; produce a sharp metallic pinging or knocking noise."


Yeah, they call it a "knock sensor" but in reality it is controlling the ping created by too much spark advance..

By shooting the messenger I meant, don't throw out the sensor because it may not be the cause. Not everything is about you.
Also, Knock, ping are all exactly the same thing. You are alone in your suggestion that they are anything else.

You're not helping the OP by trying to show some kind of superiority. Both he and everyone else knows exactly what he's talking about.

[fourthclassC]

Thanks for all replies. Couple things:
New spark plugs at 68k miles without incident...
Understood - I mean pre ignition here. NO rod knock - understand the difference
It is a E350 chassis on Class C MH
No CEL codes so it is minor at this point
Will check exh manifold for cracks and igniton coils for cracks and high voltage leakage.
How else can I check cat con for failing. There is no loss of power.

Again Thanks for all replies - appreciate the help

[ejmorgan]

Check for air leakage in the vehicle's climate-control system, which is driven by engine vacuum from the intake manifold. If it is leaking, then un-metered and un-filtered air can be sucked into the engine intake manifold, causing the air/fuel ratio to lean-out. This can cause pinging.

Ed