Test charging stop for large EV’s, busses, trucks, mohos.

[Reisender]

Another step forward for charging infrastructure.

There is also a short video.

https://electrek.co/2021/04/21/daimler-electric-truck-charging-station/

[dedmiston]

I'm closing the myriad of EV threads. Please use this one instead.

[time2roll]

As batteries improve I see the battery outlasting the vehicle. In the future we might by a glider and swap in our old battery and keep on driving. Or the battery will be used for utility or home storage of electricity for an additional decade or two.

[vern_kelly]

That's a true statement Reisender concerning depreciation. But a 10 year old car still has value today and most Americans buy used cars, not new. Hopefully less maintenance on EVs will offset the battery replacement costs.

As far a lawyers specializing in trip and fall, black cords are not too visible especially at night. I already see heavy cords strung across walkways, yards, sidewalks ect. in my neighborhood. We Americans are a litigious society. Most people do not park cars in their garage as they are full of stuff unfortunately!

EVs are coming and as they do new issues will present themselves. These are a couple I see that I don't see talked about.

Luv reading the discussions on RV.net

[Reisender]

vern kelly wrote:
One thing for sure there will be Lawyers specializing in "cord trip and fall injuries"

One question I never see brought up is longevity. Average US car on the road today is ~12 years old. Many cars in California and the west 20 years or more on the road with original drive train. Tesla batteries are guaranteed for 8 years retaining 75% of their charge range. I suspect a steep drop off after ~10 years regardless of miles driven. This could have a big impact on used EV prices.Probably battery replacement at that age and would offset today's cars maintenance somewhat.

Not sure of the average semi truck on the road age today. That would be good to know.

I'm serious about the Lawyers! Can you imagine a four car family with all electric cars with some parked on the street!

Just the opposite. Most degradation happens in the first year or two.

I can’t follow your lawyers thing. What are you talking about.

[vern_kelly]

One thing for sure there will be Lawyers specializing in "cord trip and fall injuries"

One question I never see brought up is longevity. Average US car on the road today is ~12 years old. Many cars in California and the west 20 years or more on the road with original drive train. Tesla batteries are guaranteed for 8 years retaining 75% of their charge range. I suspect a steep drop off after ~10 years regardless of miles driven. This could have a big impact on used EV prices.Probably battery replacement at that age and would offset today's cars maintenance somewhat.

Not sure of the average semi truck on the road age today. That would be good to know.

I'm serious about the Lawyers! Can you imagine a four car family with all electric cars with some parked on the street!

[Reisender]

Bird Freak wrote:
How large of a power grid will be needed to recharge 2 or 3 hundred trucks such as Amazon or UPS or even USPS overnight? What will it cost to get the power to the charging stations?
Lots of expensive problems to work out.

Overnight?? That’s easy. It’s the one or two hour fast charge that gets difficult. If Tesla can put in 100 stall 250 KW V3 Superchargers then 200 x 50 KW overnighters should be doable. Some on site storage would help. Tesla does that.

[time2roll]

ALL transportation is 20% to 30% increase in the grid and will take decades to convert.

[Bird_Freak]

How large of a power grid will be needed to recharge 2 or 3 hundred trucks such as Amazon or UPS or even USPS overnight? What will it cost to get the power to the charging stations?
Lots of expensive problems to work out.

[free_radical]

Coon hunter wrote:
I am not for or against ev. But they have some major issues to figure out. The claim is less to no pollution. These vehicles are not using plastic,battery's tires. From what I have heard a prius battery lasts on average 50000mi.@ $6000. if i did the math right add.12 per mile. What happens to this battery when it will no longer take a charge. Where are they getting the "minerals" to produce these batterys. I'm sure they are not mining them that would be bad for the environment. Batterys to last the longest like to be recharged at the same rate as they are discharged. I don't know if the chargers are capable but they should be able to auto adjust the charge rate to the average discharge to get the most life from the battery. What is the plan to charge all these ev when a storm hit and the grid is down. Still will need gasoline to fuel the generator, water pumps, chain saws, the list goes on. Solar has issues as well. They have a relatively short life span. And they need to come a long way on producing them with less energy. Currently they require more energy to produce than they can put back into the grid within thei life span. Then when they go bad they go to the land fill. Still need oil make them too they are plastic. Another big strain on these batterys will be heaters and ac. These draw quite a few amps to run where currently the heat is free and the ac you might see a tiny bit more fuel consumption to run. These are just a few issues I see with ev in general and would like to know how they are planning on being more green before I truly get behind them. Gasoline was used originally because it was a by product from making kerosene for gas lanterns and was being thrown away the ice turned that into a usable product. Electricity is nice when it works. But there are so many times that it doesn't and when you are dependent on a single item it is easy to get screwed.

Google mining Lithium if you realy want to know,its way cleaner then driling for oil.

Tesla new 4680 batery will last milion miles,and it can be recycled at the end of its life.

Tesla heater is very eficient even in winter look up some videos from people living driving in Canada in winter,sure the range is less but still doable.

We never had electricity shortage in Canada yet in my forty years living here.
and yet people complain about Goverment all the time Lol

[Reisender]

Coon hunter wrote:
I am not for or against ev. But they have some major issues to figure out. The claim is less to no pollution. These vehicles are not using plastic,battery's tires. From what I have heard a prius battery lasts on average 50000mi.@ $6000. if i did the math right add.12 per mile. What happens to this battery when it will no longer take a charge. Where are they getting the "minerals" to produce these batterys. I'm sure they are not mining them that would be bad for the environment. Batterys to last the longest like to be recharged at the same rate as they are discharged. I don't know if the chargers are capable but they should be able to auto adjust the charge rate to the average discharge to get the most life from the battery. What is the plan to charge all these ev when a storm hit and the grid is down. Still will need gasoline to fuel the generator, water pumps, chain saws, the list goes on. Solar has issues as well. They have a relatively short life span. And they need to come a long way on producing them with less energy. Currently they require more energy to produce than they can put back into the grid within thei life span. Then when they go bad they go to the land fill. Still need oil make them too they are plastic. Another big strain on these batterys will be heaters and ac. These draw quite a few amps to run where currently the heat is free and the ac you might see a tiny bit more fuel consumption to run. These are just a few issues I see with ev in general and would like to know how they are planning on being more green before I truly get behind them. Gasoline was used originally because it was a by product from making kerosene for gas lanterns and was being thrown away the ice turned that into a usable product. Electricity is nice when it works. But there are so many times that it doesn't and when you are dependent on a single item it is easy to get screwed.

I know nothing about Prius batteries but most EV LI batteries Are warranted for 8 to 10 years and or 192000 km. Projected life is actually north of 500,000 km. The cab companies around us all run Tesla’s and many of their 2014 fleet have north of 300,000 km.

Cooling and heating don’t use much in comparison to the motive requirements. An EV is a good place to be stuck in a traffic jam in winter or summer. Ask me how I know. :). Most new EV’s utilize heat pumps to improve efficiency.

The battery’s have BMS’s to control charging rates and currents.

[Coon_hunter]

I am not for or against ev. But they have some major issues to figure out. The claim is less to no pollution. These vehicles are not using plastic,battery's tires. From what I have heard a prius battery lasts on average 50000mi.@ $6000. if i did the math right add.12 per mile. What happens to this battery when it will no longer take a charge. Where are they getting the "minerals" to produce these batterys. I'm sure they are not mining them that would be bad for the environment. Batterys to last the longest like to be recharged at the same rate as they are discharged. I don't know if the chargers are capable but they should be able to auto adjust the charge rate to the average discharge to get the most life from the battery. What is the plan to charge all these ev when a storm hit and the grid is down. Still will need gasoline to fuel the generator, water pumps, chain saws, the list goes on. Solar has issues as well. They have a relatively short life span. And they need to come a long way on producing them with less energy. Currently they require more energy to produce than they can put back into the grid within thei life span. Then when they go bad they go to the land fill. Still need oil make them too they are plastic. Another big strain on these batterys will be heaters and ac. These draw quite a few amps to run where currently the heat is free and the ac you might see a tiny bit more fuel consumption to run. These are just a few issues I see with ev in general and would like to know how they are planning on being more green before I truly get behind them. Gasoline was used originally because it was a by product from making kerosene for gas lanterns and was being thrown away the ice turned that into a usable product. Electricity is nice when it works. But there are so many times that it doesn't and when you are dependent on a single item it is easy to get screwed.

[JRscooby]

Reisender wrote:

Scooby I am no expert. But for example the cars battery can be routinely run down to almost zero with no issues. TESLA I believe recommends daily operation between 20 and 90 percent but also adds that running between 100 and very low percentage is fine. So yes, you can draw the battery down to pretty much zero.

Does the output voltage of the battery drop as the state of charge drops? If it does, will the inverter still power the charger?
OT, but to show how I learn. Years back a driver left truck lights on overnight. When I found out next morning, I called him, told him to take day off. I rolled out my big charger, and 200 feet of 16 gauge cord. Worked all day, very little charge in batteries. Decided batteries where ruined, and loaded them in pickup. Gave driver another day off. Next morning I hooked up the charger with it plugged into the shop wall. When we stopped at noon, the meter on charger showed full charge. Batteries lasted rest of year. (Driver didn't)

time2roll wrote:

JRscooby wrote:

time2roll wrote:
While the en-route charging shown in the video is great.... The real benefit will be having the charging station at the destination loading dock to charge where the truck is already stopped to unload. Especially for fleet vehicles such as grocery stores. Will increase the incentive to get solar up on the store roof too.

I will say I know nothing about EVs other than I like the idea. That said many times in my life I have seen a battery that was fully charged hooked to a mostly discharged one with large cables and in a very short time the voltage in the discharged battery make a big jump up.
Now to go into theory, or really show my ignorance. Would it be possible to build a stationary battery bank, with say twice the capacity of the battery of the EV, and such that the fully charged voltage was 10% higher than full charge on EV? Then let solar panels on the roof charge that battery. The EV, pulls in with a low battery. Large cables, or better buss bars, join the batteries. Kick in a relay, wouldn't that charge the EV to full charge in a short time? If the EV was to set overnight, the cables could be smaller, charge slower.

Yes however the cables would have to be immense and the batteries would charge/discharge faster than optimum for long life. Still best to have a controlled charging cycle at the correct maximum. Using the existing down time of the truck in effect takes no extra time. If the truck makes nine 20 minute stops in the day to unload that is three hours of charging and no time lost in the schedule.

Yes, pulling the cables out to hook up would be a strain. That is why I mentioned bars. On a straight truck it would be fairly easy to after the dock ramp is placed, a pair of bars swing to contact. Semi would need to make contact at trailer/dock and tractor/trailer.
Most times when a truck is making many stops in a day don't dock just use liftgate. But at grocery warehouse for example, often the trailer stays at dock all night to be loaded. When it leaves to make deliveries, OTR trucks back in to unload (The last time I delivered to a grocery warehouse it was against company policy for outside drivers to us restroom or spend the rest of sleeper time on property. Think they would charge OTR trucks?

Gjac wrote:

I like your battery idea if something would be able to top off the batteries but I think it would be more practical to just change out the batteries when they get low then the EV station would charge them over night until the next truck or MH needs one. Quick change over the time it takes to fill a 100 gal diesel tank.

Changing batteries might work, but what I was thinking (use thinking loosely) was while the truck is out making deliveries or bus bussing thru the day solar is charging stationary batteries. Then at night, power is transferred to vehicle.

[Reisender]

Gjac wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Horsedoc wrote:
Not one answer to the questions that should be on everyone's mind..
How long to charge a heavy duty truck?
What does it cost?
If this place saves on petro chemical fuels, where does the energy come from that generates the power to do the charging?

Well, the article mentions a 1 megawatt rate which is about three times faster than at currently available vehicle charge stations. But that is changing fast. So assuming the 1 megawatt is achievable probably a couple hours for a 1 megawatt pack. Who knows.

Cost at current fast chargers is around 26 cents to 45 cents so multiply that by the pack size and go from there. It costs me 8 bucks to fill up at home, around 20 bucks to fill up at a supercharger. If a truck has a pack 10 times bigger than mine at those rates about 200 bucks.

Where the energy comes from depends on the country, region, province, state etc. In our province it’s from Hydro. Etc etc.

Not an expert. :).

When you say 26 to 45 cents do you mean per KWH?

Yes. Per kWH. Superchargers are typically 3 times as expensive as home charging. Public DCFC from other companies can be even more. Which is why the vast majority of charging is done at home. Generally fast charging is only done on road trips. Keeps the fast chargers from getting overwhelmed that way.

[pitch]

free radical wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

PartyOf Five wrote:
While I don't question any of the numbers above, I also don't question the business sense of these & so many other companies - if its not going to work, they're not going to invest $1 into it. Success (according to the masses at least) goes to those who make the most money, and the ones who lead this race are generally the ones who can think beyond the box.

With wind, solar, and other power forms becoming popular, it could be reasonable that that coal plant has fewer customers, or that it's customers need less power - enabling more charging stations at the truck stop.

From Wikipedia: In 2019 there were 241 coal powered units across the United States which generated 23% of the United States electricity in 2019, an amount of electricity similar to that from renewable energy or nuclear power... Installed capacity was about 236 GW.
So if you have 5 coal plants per state today, then each serves a couple hundred miles- is there a need for 14 truck stops within each one's service region?

If it was the businesses leading, I would agree.
The problem is this is the politicians driving the process and using our tax dollars to allow them to ignore the financials. If the govt throws a few billion at it, industry happily will put together a program to test running trucks on unicorn farts.

Coal plants are being taken off line. We are actually entering a period where excess production capacity is steadily going down.

I wasn't proposing to build coal power plants but just using that to explain the scale of what these chargers need in terms of power supply. You could use in nuclear, hydro or solar the charging stations as equivalents, doesn't matter but we are talking huge concentrated demands. A couple acres of solar panels aren't going to be even close to enough to service an individual truck stop. And more importantly, the existing power plants are already being used for other purposes. For every 14 truck stops as described, you are going to have to build the generation capability of an average power plant.
.

This OUR TAX dolars fud always cracks me up,
Our taxes arent nowhere near enough to pay for any large expenditures.

Fed simply prints trilions more $$ to keep the show going,

https://youtu.be/mgMp3p44J7Y

It is industry and the market leading E vehicles. The petroleum industry in the US is subsidized by millions of dollars, tax breaks,and a myriad of government programs. Really confusing that we should be giving money to a fantastically profitable mature business.
If the E vehicle and renewable market had a quarter of the support the petro chemical industry has, we would probably already be there.
But industry knows where we are going, look at the market look at renewable companies and the plethora of even petroleum exploiters that are making massive investment in the future.

So for the few of you that are saying that it is not for you,fine, I am sure that you won't be missed.
Most folks on this board are at least forty years old, and most well past that. Wake up smell the coffee, you are no longer desirable demographic. Your opinion,lack of support, refusal to participate, and general luddite view, is no longer significant. Face it, you are obsolete as your ICE vehicle!