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 > GM Spokesperson admits energy to charge cars comes from coal

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fj12ryder

Platte City, MO

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Posted: 04/27/21 10:17am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

So, it is "green" to...

1. Consume millions of gallons of water to mine lithium via a production processes that my native state, California, would never permit--due to the environmental destruction. (OK to destroy land that is far away?)
2. Mine an element that has an extremely limited supply. Lithium makes up 0.0007 percent of the Earth’s crust. Chile produces most of the element for the world market, with Australia coming in second.
3. Consume 3,000 - 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish an EV fire (while at the same time requiring installation low flush toilets in new homes requiring 2-3 flushes).
4. Create an energy cell (lithium battery) that is both a fire hazard and has killed many people (including 34 people that burned alive in the dive boat Conception).
5. To recycle said energy cell at near 100% efficiency, the material must be smelted at 1500°C (over 2700°F).
6. To fire said smelter to over 2700°F, will surely require fossil fuels (transported by those ugly diesel truck tankers, as pipelines are no longer chic, Keystone).
7. When I was young, I remember being told that nuclear power is a great source for alternative energy (it burns no fuel and no greenhouse pollutants are emitted). Problem was what to do with the spent fuel rods, as there was no operational plan to transport and store them.
8. What is the plan to transport, store and recycle the nearly 13 million tons of EV batteries when they are replaced during 2021-2030?

IMO, strategies of "hope" are usually destined to failure; as not everyone will do the right thing, at the right time.
Oh, you're just being a hater and naysayer. Those problems will all be worked out, just ask the EV proponents, just don't expect specific answers. Rather, you'll hear "We've faced problems before and got through them", "Technology is progressing faster every year, those issues will be solved too", "If you constantly nitpick, you'll never get anywhere". [emoticon]


Howard and Peggy

"Don't Panic"

FWC

The Wilderness

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Posted: 04/27/21 10:21am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

Moral of the story: Follow the money, as "alternative energy" is a nothing but con game.

Replacing bad with "not so bad, we hope".


I am not sure I understand the logic here. We can also 'follow the money" on fossil fuels, and there isn't the situation 'we know it is bad, we just don't want to change'.

EVs are not perfect by any stretch, but it is at least a step in the right direction and allows flexibility in energy sourcing. If you don't think they are the best solution, what would you suggest?

Timmo!

Oregon

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Posted: 04/27/21 11:50am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fj12ryder wrote:

Oh, you're just being a hater and naysayer. Those problems will all be worked out, just ask the EV proponents, just don't expect specific answers. Rather, you'll hear "We've faced problems before and got through them", "Technology is progressing faster every year, those issues will be solved too", "If you constantly nitpick, you'll never get anywhere". [emoticon]


Not a naysayer or hater, just asking difficult questions. And if my questions have no answers, then that is important to know: EV smart people have no answers.

FWC wrote:


I am not sure I understand the logic here. We can also 'follow the money" on fossil fuels, and there isn't the situation 'we know it is bad, we just don't want to change'.

EVs are not perfect by any stretch, but it is at least a step in the right direction and allows flexibility in energy sourcing. If you don't think they are the best solution, what would you suggest?


I think we are all aware of the evils of fossil fuels. What I am challenging are the obvious potential evils of EV (period). BTW, framing the debate by suggesting: "yes EV's are evil, but IC's are worse" is a strawman argument.

As a avid conservationist (as in leave no trace), I am appalled of the official recommendations to combat EV fires: Pour 3,000-32,000 gallons of water or let it burn out.

There are farmlands in central California that sitting idle do to water rationing. Methinks there are better solutions than creating a product that requires massive water usage. But like I said, follow the money--that is the path to the real game.


(Formerly known as SPRey)
Tim & Sue
Hershey (Sheltie)
2005 F150 4x4 Lariat 5.4L 3.73 Please buy a Hybrid...I need your gas for my 35.7 gallon tank!
2000 Nash 19B...comfortably pimped with a real Queen Size Bed


BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 04/27/21 11:58am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Quote:

We found that water is consumed at a rate of 2.8-6.6 liters for each liter of gasoline produced for more than 90% of crude oil obtained from conventional onshore sources in the U.S. and more than half of crude oil imported from Saudi Arabia. For more than 55% of crude oil from Canadian oil sands, about 5.2 liters of water are consumed for each liter of gasoline produced.

Source: May Wu et al. Environ Manage. 2009 Nov.


Quote:

In 2020, about 123.49 billion gallons (or about 2.94 billion barrels1) of finished motor gasoline were consumed in the United States, an average of about 337 million gallons per day (or about 8.03 million barrels per day).

Source: EIA


Simple math (assuming 5.2L water/L gasoline) yielded 642 billion gallons of water consumed for the gallons of gasoline consumed in the USA in 2020.

Is Li mining or gasoline production the water hog?

FWC

The Wilderness

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Posted: 04/27/21 12:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

fj12ryder wrote:

Oh, you're just being a hater and naysayer. Those problems will all be worked out, just ask the EV proponents, just don't expect specific answers. Rather, you'll hear "We've faced problems before and got through them", "Technology is progressing faster every year, those issues will be solved too", "If you constantly nitpick, you'll never get anywhere". [emoticon]


Not a naysayer or hater, just asking difficult questions. And if my questions have no answers, then that is important to know: EV smart people have no answers.

FWC wrote:


I am not sure I understand the logic here. We can also 'follow the money" on fossil fuels, and there isn't the situation 'we know it is bad, we just don't want to change'.

EVs are not perfect by any stretch, but it is at least a step in the right direction and allows flexibility in energy sourcing. If you don't think they are the best solution, what would you suggest?


I think we are all aware of the evils of fossil fuels. What I am challenging are the obvious potential evils of EV (period). BTW, framing the debate by suggesting: "yes EV's are evil, but IC's are worse" is a strawman argument.

As a avid conservationist (as in leave no trace), I am appalled of the official recommendations to combat EV fires: Pour 3,000-32,000 gallons of water or let it burn out.

There are farmlands in central California that sitting idle do to water rationing. Methinks there are better solutions than creating a product that requires massive water usage. But like I said, follow the money--that is the path to the real game.


I am not sure how this is a straw man? Transportation uses energy and resources, EVs allow us to use less energy and from a larger variety of sources. Again they are not perfect, but propose a better solution if you have?

As for the EV battery fires, that is a straw man argument. How many EV battery fires do you expect to have in a year? Unless you think there will be a need to extinguish tens of millions of EV fires every year, a move to EVs and renewable energy will decrease water requirements as opposed to drilling for and refining gasoline.

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 04/27/21 01:49pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Assuming:
22lbs of lithium per Tesla battery
500,000gals of water to mine 1 metric ton of lithium
5.2gals of water to produce 1 gal of gasoline

A car with 30mpg driving about 28,000 miles will have consumed enough water (for the gasoline used) to be equivalent to the water consumed to mine the lithium in one Tesla battery.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 04/27/21 01:50pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

My ice car was subject to recall. The fuel line to the engine may leak and cause the car to catch on fire. There are only 1.3 million vehicles involved. There was no hue and cry. But the Bolt--well certainly "the sky is falling".

BEV technology is not perfect, nor non polluting. But it is better than ICE already even when Bev tech is in its infancy.

My next vehicle will be a BEV and it may be the last car I purchase.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, soon to have SiO2 batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 04/27/21 01:53pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob,

The evaporation of water is into the atmosphere for Li mining. In a sense, it is recycled.

The water used in the production of fossil fuels is contaminated beyond further use.

BCSnob

Middletown, MD

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Posted: 04/27/21 02:11pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The numbers may not be exact but they put into context that water use for lithium mining will be offset by the reduced water use for gasoline production.

thomas201

Eastern Panhandle WV

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Posted: 04/27/21 02:27pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Most of the water used in producing fossil fuels goes into the air as water vapor, out of cooing towers. Same for power plants.

Real nasty water is treated. We want those hydrocarbons back, we sell those.

Salt saturated water, is about the only fraction wasted. Often that can be used in an oilfield water flood to produce more oil. Keeps the pressure up and displaces oil. You can take produced water, frac flowback and then use it in a water flood. That idea can get a nice bonus at work. Ask me how I know. Saves the company a lot of money, and the water does not count as waste, because it is not.

We now use flowback from frac #1, to frac well #2 and so on. A little more chemistry progress and we might be able to use salt saturated water for fracs, then we can recycle to destruction.

Ever seen a crop circle (center pivot irrigation) out West. I can frac about 20 plus wells with that amount of water. I'll buy the farmer alfalfa.

Oh yea, do ya know you eat natural gas? About 5% of all the natural gas produced in the world goes into making fertilizer. In fact 50% of the nitrogen in the proteins in your body come from my natural gas. I just love telling this to people. See Haber Process

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