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 > GM Spokesperson admits energy to charge cars comes from coal

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time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 04/27/21 02:34pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

The earth is doomed [emoticon] Best of luck to those 20 generations+ into the future.


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FWC

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Posted: 04/27/21 02:43pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

I am curious about this. My understanding was that a certain fraction of fracking water is lost into the formation during fracking and that the frac flow back is often disposed of in a deep injection well (thus the earth quakes). What percentage of frac water is reused?

Otherwise this seems like one of the very few processes on earth that actually removes water from the water cycle. Once it is injected below the water table (hopefully) it is essentially lost for good is it not?

thomas201 wrote:

Most of the water used in producing fossil fuels goes into the air as water vapor, out of cooing towers. Same for power plants.

Real nasty water is treated. We want those hydrocarbons back, we sell those.

Salt saturated water, is about the only fraction wasted. Often that can be used in an oilfield water flood to produce more oil. Keeps the pressure up and displaces oil. You can take produced water, frac flowback and then use it in a water flood. That idea can get a nice bonus at work. Ask me how I know. Saves the company a lot of money, and the water does not count as waste, because it is not.

We now use flowback from frac #1, to frac well #2 and so on. A little more chemistry progress and we might be able to use salt saturated water for fracs, then we can recycle to destruction.

Ever seen a crop circle (center pivot irrigation) out West. I can frac about 20 plus wells with that amount of water. I'll buy the farmer alfalfa.

Oh yea, do ya know you eat natural gas? About 5% of all the natural gas produced in the world goes into making fertilizer. In fact 50% of the nitrogen in the proteins in your body come from my natural gas. I just love telling this to people. See Haber Process


BCSnob

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Posted: 04/27/21 03:17pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Another false argument posed was the cost associated with shipping the EV batteries. What is the difference in costs associated with shipping a EV drivetrain (battery and motors) vs an ICE drivetrain (motor and transmission)?

Don’t forget about the water consumed to produce the ethanol in a gal of gasoline; corn based ethanol production is a water intensive process.

The arguments against something new is almost always about what’s wrong with the new and not about what the net change will be with the new replacing the current.

thomas201

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Posted: 04/27/21 03:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

FWC, I'll hit some of the high points. First, fresh water is a shallow exception. Drill deep enough and you will hit salt water, almost all sedimentary rocks formed in oceans and the salt water is still there. First salt (an old drillers term) lets you know you are deep enough to find oil and gas. Easy to know, the old guys tasted the cuttings bailed from the wells. In large parts of KY, might be as shallow as 300 feet. Don't drill your water well too deep! Lots of places have salt licks, mineral springs, and even Burning Springs (both NY and WV), where the salt naturally reaches the surface. Oil seeps too, you know the La Brea tar pits in CA. The petroleum industry probably started with a Chinese fella in the salt business. He was drilling salt water wells and evaporating the water from the salt with wood fires. His wells produced associated gas, and he got tired of chopping wood and decided to us a gas fire to evaporate the water.

Most gas and oil wells produce far more water in their life times, than was ever used in fracturing. However, it is salty. Some is disposed of in other wells. Often it is used in a waterflood to keep the pressure up in an oilfield. This water is never counted, because it is not waste. It is just reported as waterflood. This really helps in producing oil.

Some wells, such as the Marcellus in southwestern PA, might not produce the frac water back. Had a good fight with drilling, since drilling normally pays to dispose of frac water. They did not want to leave their AFE's (purchase orders) open for more than a year. Some sneaky production guy might charge all kinds of things, other than water to the AFE. Why? I think there are crystalized salts in the naturally fractured (God's doing) Marcellus. I retired 10 years ago, the question might have an answer by now.

As to percentage recycled, the answer will vary from field to field, but I will tell you this. Every barrel hauled and recycled, is one barrel not hauled and disposed of, and is one additional barrel of fresh water that does not need to be hauled. Also, in the East at least one company was using a multiple effect evaporator system, to produce salt and distilled water from oilfield brine. The distilled water was then used to dilute down untreated frac water for the next well. That once again was 10 years ago. Oh, I almost forgot one company was using turd farm (sewage treatment)outfall for frac water. Another outfit was thinking of drilling into abandoned coal mines and using that water.

Don't forget that the bulk of water on the planet is salt, both the seas and the ground water below first salt. The sun continues to produce fresh water every day, and if not used it makes it back to the ocean, where it becomes salt water again. Then around and around it goes. This argument doesn't count in dry areas, where they "mine" well water for crops and consumption.

Sooner, or later, there will be a chemistry break though that will allow fracturing to use salt saturated water. Then all will be recycled.

BCSnob

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Posted: 04/27/21 03:35pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Quote:

MGX Minerals is pioneering a new concept called “petrolithium.” The idea is to separate the most valuable minerals and salts from the brine water that accompanies petroleum as it’s being pulled up to the surface. Among those valuable minerals in the brine water is lithium carbonate.

Petrolithium: Extracting Minerals From Petroleum Brine

When a value is added to a waste product innovation often occurs to sell that waste product

lbrjet

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Posted: 04/27/21 06:03pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fj12ryder wrote:

Timmo! wrote:

So, it is "green" to...

1. Consume millions of gallons of water to mine lithium via a production processes that my native state, California, would never permit--due to the environmental destruction. (OK to destroy land that is far away?)
2. Mine an element that has an extremely limited supply. Lithium makes up 0.0007 percent of the Earth’s crust. Chile produces most of the element for the world market, with Australia coming in second.
3. Consume 3,000 - 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish an EV fire (while at the same time requiring installation low flush toilets in new homes requiring 2-3 flushes).
4. Create an energy cell (lithium battery) that is both a fire hazard and has killed many people (including 34 people that burned alive in the dive boat Conception).
5. To recycle said energy cell at near 100% efficiency, the material must be smelted at 1500°C (over 2700°F).
6. To fire said smelter to over 2700°F, will surely require fossil fuels (transported by those ugly diesel truck tankers, as pipelines are no longer chic, Keystone).
7. When I was young, I remember being told that nuclear power is a great source for alternative energy (it burns no fuel and no greenhouse pollutants are emitted). Problem was what to do with the spent fuel rods, as there was no operational plan to transport and store them.
8. What is the plan to transport, store and recycle the nearly 13 million tons of EV batteries when they are replaced during 2021-2030?

IMO, strategies of "hope" are usually destined to failure; as not everyone will do the right thing, at the right time.
Oh, you're just being a hater and naysayer. Those problems will all be worked out, just ask the EV proponents, just don't expect specific answers. Rather, you'll hear "We've faced problems before and got through them", "Technology is progressing faster every year, those issues will be solved too", "If you constantly nitpick, you'll never get anywhere". [emoticon]


I guess when you have no counter argument it is time for name calling.


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Posted: 04/27/21 06:23pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

[image]


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Huntindog

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Posted: 04/27/21 06:24pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

Another false argument posed was the cost associated with shipping the EV batteries. What is the difference in costs associated with shipping a EV drivetrain (battery and motors) vs an ICE drivetrain (motor and transmission)?

Don’t forget about the water consumed to produce the ethanol in a gal of gasoline; corn based ethanol production is a water intensive process.

The arguments against something new is almost always about what’s wrong with the new and not about what the net change will be with the new replacing the current.

Ethanol doesn't belong in the argument. The greenies forced that debacle on us, and once the farmers found out how profitable it is for them... It is now impossible to get rid of it, even though it never made any sense.


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BCSnob

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Posted: 04/27/21 07:43pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

If you’re going to exclude the water used to make the ethanol in the fuel that is being sold at the pumps then EV buyers should be able to say the lithium produced from the Cornwall geothermal mine instead of the lithium from the vastly more water intensive mines in South America was used in their batteries (regardless of where the battery manufacturers got the lithium).

The new 'gold rush' for green lithium

* This post was edited 04/27/21 07:56pm by BCSnob *

free radical

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Posted: 04/27/21 08:43pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

BCSnob wrote:

Assuming:
22lbs of lithium per Tesla battery
500,000gals of water to mine 1 metric ton of lithium
5.2gals of water to produce 1 gal of gasoline

A car with 30mpg driving about 28,000 miles will have consumed enough water (for the gasoline used) to be equivalent to the water consumed to mine the lithium in one Tesla battery.

Even IF that was correct,so what,
theres more water then land on earth !

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