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RambleOnNW

Pacific Northwest

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Posted: 05/05/21 09:33pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:



Yes, but their target market is office commuters etc doing a typical commute. A typical commute is about 8 KWH In North America. That’s about 50 kilometres. I can see that. Ours is about 6 KWH most days.


If a user is using that little then why not charge when you get home? I don’t see the point.


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time2roll

Southern California

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Posted: 05/05/21 09:33pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RambleOnNW wrote:

Hydrogen fuel cells generate heat not cold.
The fueling process is very chilling as the hydrogen expands into the tanks. Often requiring a significant wait for defrosting. My comment was based on the expectation to refuel quickly headed into a snowstorm.

Current range of the Toyota Semi is 300 miles.

https://www.trucks.com/2020/12/10/toyota........ond-generation-hydrogen-fuel-cell-truck/


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Reisender

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Posted: 05/05/21 10:01pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RambleOnNW wrote:

Reisender wrote:



Yes, but their target market is office commuters etc doing a typical commute. A typical commute is about 8 KWH In North America. That’s about 50 kilometres. I can see that. Ours is about 6 KWH most days.


If a user is using that little then why not charge when you get home? I don’t see the point.


The idea is twofold.

1. Apartment dwellers that don’t have access to charging at home can charge daily at these facilities.
2. These are not connected to the grid in anyway and essentially shift the load off the grid.

Definitely a quick problem solver for some applications. Keep in mind these are primarily L2 applications using a common J1772 plug so any EV can charge. They are starting to pop up more frequently in Europe as well. There is a German manufacturer, same idea although I believe they have bigger storage. I’ve seen a few of these and never seen them with a DCFC plug although I suppose it could work with enough storage. Like I say, primarily office commuters. They work well from what I gather.

JRscooby

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Posted: 05/06/21 04:40am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RambleOnNW wrote:



Charging up at home is certainly convenient however electricity in the quantities needed for vehicle charging is not portable. When hurricanes or winter storms take down power lines then home vehicle charging will be left high and dry.


To me, this issue is a wash. But I know that need electricity to pump the gas into cars. I have been in times/places where I could not buy fuel because phone line was down. Bell, once a railroad bridge went down, 2 days later you couldn't by diesel at any of 4 stations that normally have it on 150 miles of highway. Anybody that charged at home would have no issue.
I would think that somebody that "fuels" at home is likely to be close to full "tank" than the guy that must go to a station.
Say the ICE car can run 300 miles on a tank, EV 300 on full battery. If both full, can run same distance. But I bet there is better chance EV is charge unless there is advanced notice.

BCSnob

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Posted: 05/06/21 05:04am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bobbo wrote:


There is a HUGE difference between "does not need to come from strip mines," and "does not come from strip mines." Much, and I mean MUCH lithium today comes from strip mines.
Which do you think is worse for the environment, strip mining lithium or tar sands? My guess would be they are equally bad; and yet there is a push to develop tar sands and the emissions in its ultimate use by those who are rejecting EVs because of the impact of strip mining lithium which when used in EVs has much lower emissions than ICEs. Wouldn’t the better environmental approval be to push regulations on strip mining (both resources) forcing the development of cleaner methods of extraction of these resources?

Bobbo

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Posted: 05/06/21 06:44am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Reisender wrote:

Bobbo wrote:

Nice for you, but we need to consider the Florida coasts and Texas gulf coast too. Power outages from hurricanes can last weeks. Think about the traffic jams you see on the news when populations are evacuating. Everybody needing an hour to charge their car every 250 miles?


Yah I get that. Lots of extreme weather there. But EV’s are evolving pretty quick. The latest models charge 200 miles in 15 minutes. That will probably be mainstream in a few years. Things will look different in 5 years than they are today. And five years after that things will change again.

It may be different there but here BC Canada if there is a power outage the gas stations are all closed as well. I can see governments having to rethink infrastructure needs as alternative fueled vehicles gain popularity. We are noticing some of that here with BC Hydro adding some DCFC stations on some pretty remote highways presumably for winter storm situations. We have just been passing them by but I can see how they would be handy in unexpected harsh winter conditions.

I love the arguments "the technology that is coming" and "in 5 years." Folks are making every effort to destroy the infrastructure that the world runs on today relying on vaporware that may never materialize. If your best argument is "in 5 years," wake me up then and we can discuss it. When the technology is HERE TODAY, we can dismantle the old infrastructure. That is the way we went from horse and buggy to automobiles. The government didn't mandate that everyone buy a car and stop using horses. Cars were an improvement so people shifted to them and the infrastructure followed, letting the horse and buggy slowly die out. If, IF, BEVs are better, ICE will die out naturally and infrastructure will appear because that is where the market will be and capitalism will demand the market be met. If the argument is not improving transportation, but saving the world, then BEVs are not the answer anyway. To save the world, we need to go back to the horse and buggy.


Bobbo and Lin
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pianotuna

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Posted: 05/06/21 06:59am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

How much loss of capacity?

[image]


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, soon to have SiO2 batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

pianotuna

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Posted: 05/06/21 07:10am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Bobbo wrote:

If the argument is not improving transportation, but saving the world, then BEVs are not the answer anyway. To save the world, we need to go back to the horse and buggy.


Your argument smells of methane. Buy some American Buggy Whip stock?

fj12ryder

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Posted: 05/06/21 08:57am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

"To save the world, we need to go back to the horse and buggy."

The only people who say that are people who have never lived in the horse and buggy era.

Make the world a better place? Stop the huge, never ending, population growth.


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Timmo!

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Posted: 05/06/21 10:12am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Not sure which is worse for our groundwater: leaching as the result of fracking for oil--or leaching from lithium extraction operataions.

In May 2016, dead fish were found in the waters of the Liqi River, where a toxic chemical leaked from the Ganzizhou Rongda Lithium mine. Cow and yak carcasses were also found floating downstream, dead from drinking contaminated water. It was the third incident in seven years due to a sharp increase in mining activity, including operations run by China’s BYD, one of the world’ biggest supplier of lithium-ion batteries. After the second incident in 2013, officials closed the mine, but fish started dying again when it reopened in April 2016.

Nevada, researchers found impacts on fish as far as 150 miles downstream from a lithium processing operation.

Lithium extraction harms the soil and causes air contamination. In Argentina’s Salar de Hombre Muerto, residents believe that lithium operations contaminated streams used by humans and livestock and for crop irrigation. In Chile, the landscape is marred by mountains of discarded salt and canals filled with contaminated water with an unnatural blue hue. According to Guillermo Gonzalez, a lithium battery expert from the University of Chile, “This isn’t a green solution – it’s not a solution at all.”


https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.o........vironmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/

Lithium brine extraction is similar to extracting for fossil fuels, and impossible to return site back to its natural state.

1. Drill hundreds of feet to access the salar brine deposit.
2. Brine is pumped to the surface and distributed to evaporation pools (500 million gallons per metric ton).
3. After the water is evaporated by the sun (months to years), it is...
4. Pre-treated to remove contaminants
5. Chemically treated to isolate desired products and byproducts via precipitation.
6. Filtration to separate precipitated solids.
7. Brine is treated with reagents to form lithium carbonate.

Strip mining lithium is 100% destructive (impossible to return site back to natural state)

1. Remove mineral material from earth.
2. Heating and pulverizing the ore.
3. Crushed mineral powder is combined with chemical reagents, including sulfuric acid forming a slurry.
4. Slurry is heated, filtered and concentrated through an evaporation process to form lithium carbonate.
5. Waste water is treated and disposed.

[image]

I hear the howl, "Timmo, there are cleaner ways to collect lithium". Maybe but not ready today, maybe someday in the future.

Other lithium extraction processes

Beyond salar brine and mineral ore, lithium can be produced from a few other sources, though such production is not widespread at this time. These other lithium sources include:

Hectorite clay. Extensive research and development has been invested into developing effective clay processing techniques, including acid, alkaline, chloride and sulfate leaching, as well as water disaggregation and hydrothermal treatment. To date, none of these technologies has proven economically viable for extracting lithium from clay.
Seawater. Hundreds of billions of tons of lithium is estimated to exist in our oceans, making them an attractive source for meeting future lithium demand. While existing processes—including a co-precipitation extraction process and a hybrid IX-sorption process—have succeeded in extracting lithium from seawater, newer membrane technologies are showing greater promise for bringing the costs of seawater extraction down.
Recycled brines from energy plants. Efforts to retrieve lithium from geothermal brines are gaining popularity as worldwide demand for lithium increases and as new technologies emerge. The processes used follow conventional brine extraction, though they might be adapted based on the content of the brine stream.
Recovered oil field brine. Retrieval of lithium from oil field brines is technically just another form of conventional brine extraction, with the difference being the source of the brine.
Recycled electronics. Lithium battery recycling doesn’t truly meet the definition of extraction, however, as demand grows, lithium ion battery recycling will become an increasingly valuable source of the metal.

While each of these poses a potentially valuable source of lithium, the technologies to extract brine from them are not yet developed enough to make them cost-effective or viable alternatives to salar brine mining or mineral ore mining.


https://www.samcotech.com/what-is-lithium-extraction-and-how-does-it-work/

Is replacing "drilling for oil" for "drilling for lithium" the best we can do? I think Mother Earth deserves better.

BTW, without fossil fuels, neither the production of EV and lithium would be possible. Fossil fuels are required (period).


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Tim & Sue
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