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Timmo!

Oregon

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Posted: 05/08/21 12:09pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

As I was collecting data to finalize my "break even" analysis between ICE and BEV, I discovered Volvo already did that for us. For starters, the basic ICE XC40 has a $33,700 base MRSP and the BEV version is $53,900, for a premium of over $20k.

Using the amount of emissions from the average power plant (mix all sources of power) once you drive the XC40 for 97,270 miles (146,000 km), you are now "greener" than the XC40 gas version. If we used 100% solar power (no coal, natural gas, hydro, etc) then at 29,204 miles (47,000 km) you are now "greener" than the ICE version. Until you reach those breakeven points the ICE XC40 has a smaller carbon footprint.


Bottomline--

As long as the XC40 Recharge has a higher Carbon Footprint from the Materials production and refining phase than the XC40 ICE, the question of break-even will remain. At what distance will GHG emissions from Materials production and refining be outweighed by lower emissions in the use phase? This study shows a break-even point of almost 50,000 km for the wind powered XC40 Recharge, significantly below the driving distance of 200,000 km used as the functional unit. When considering a global average electricity mix the break-even point is at about 146,000 km for XC40 Recharge, also below the 200,000 km. After the break-even points the global warming related benefits of the XC40 Recharge compared to the XC40 ICE continue to increase over the rest of the life cycle. This means that the longer the lifetime, the lower the Carbon Footprint of the XC40 Recharge compared to the XC40 ICE.

Volvo report https://group.volvocars.com/news/sustain........edia/ccs/Volvo_carbonfootprintreport.pdf

Following are excerpts from that report.

[image]
[image]
[image]
[image]

So, it depends on what region you live in and kind of fuel required to generate electricity.

Those with lowest MPG are states with "dirty power" (greater emissions per kWh).
[image]

Source: https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/g........vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

How is your energy generated? https://www.chooseenergy.com/data-center/electricity-sources-by-state/

How much does your state charge for power? https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/

So, is it worth a $20k premium for the BEV XC40? IMO, no. The Volvo is for my wife and she buys one tank of gas every 6 weeks or so for her Benz, and probably drives 200-300 miles a month. Assuming Oregon goes 100% wind, then around the 8th year the BEV will be "greener" than the ICE alternative.


(Formerly known as SPRey)
Tim & Sue
Hershey (Sheltie)
2005 F150 4x4 Lariat 5.4L 3.73 Please buy a Hybrid...I need your gas for my 35.7 gallon tank!
2000 Nash 19B...comfortably pimped with a real Queen Size Bed


Reisender

NA

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Posted: 05/08/21 12:14pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RambleOnNW wrote:

Reisender wrote:


[image]


Curb Weight: 3366_________________________________ 3582 lbs.

Long range:

_________________________________________________ 4065 lbs.


I probably missed a post but why the weight reference?

MEXICOWANDERER

las peñas, michoacan, mexico

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Posted: 05/08/21 01:10pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Mexico and Venezuela must be refining their crude in Texas before they can export their finished products to the US.

The Shell Oil / Pemex refinery in Deer Park TX sends all but their heavy products back to (Villahermosa) Mexico. Heavy products mean tar, pitch and asphalt.

Mexico imports more than 50% of their fuel. Gasoline, aviation gasoline and liquified petroleum gas. Every last drop of ULSD called UBA, comes from the United States or Japan. It is common to find Japanese diesel with no detectable sulfur content. O ppm.

Use 700 kWh monthly for four months, and you will find the power costing fifty cents per kilowatt-hour. Generation kWh-per-household, plant CAPACITY is ONE FIFTH that of the USA. Overload the grid and the distribution grid goes dark.

The point I am pleading here is if the USA hopes to clean up North American air it cannot ignore Mexico. Sarcastically, instead of funding millions of dollars for Pakistani dance interpretation, pay the FLUOR CORPORATION to design a new ultra low sulfur fuel refinery.

In a country where a fifteen thousand dollar automobile is a sign of wealthy extravagance, there just isn't enough funding to do this without help. Gang Canada, the USA, France, Germany and Great Britain together to build a gigantic refinery. Get Mexico to commit absolute fair share funding for the project that they cannot weasel out of.

But to go electric photo panels, all electric houses, cars trains and trucks next door to a source of pollution 100x worse than the US in the sixties is absurd folly.

A ten thousand dollar carbon fiber racing bicycle in the Congo.

Only then would I start believing in electrical green.

free radical

Canada

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Posted: 05/08/21 08:02pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

RambleOnNW wrote:

free radical wrote:


Hydrogen is DOA,,
it doesnt make sense financialy compared to Evs.

How many hydrogen Nikola trucks have you seen after all the promises and GM being complicit partner!?


Just wait until two months from now when the Japan Hydrogen Olympics start:
https://www.fchea.org/in-transition/2020/5/25/japans-hydrogen-olympics

Wait for what? Stupidity on grand scale!?

What will they make hydrogen fuel from,water heated by solar panels or nukes or what?

Then compress into special high presure vesel tanks that are dangerous
To handle and refuel.

Why not just recharge bateries with sun like Tesla and other EV cars and buses do?
Rube Goldberg must be chearin on Japanese nonsense from the grave Lol

Electric beat h20 hands down,dont believe it,go buy hydrogen power car and let us know how you like it.

free radical

Canada

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Posted: 05/08/21 08:15pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Mexico and Venezuela must be refining their crude in Texas before they can export their finished products to the US.

The Shell Oil / Pemex refinery in Deer Park TX sends all but their heavy products back to (Villahermosa) Mexico. Heavy products mean tar, pitch and asphalt.

Mexico imports more than 50% of their fuel. Gasoline, aviation gasoline and liquified petroleum gas. Every last drop of ULSD called UBA, comes from the United States or Japan. It is common to find Japanese diesel with no detectable sulfur content. O ppm.

Use 700 kWh monthly for four months, and you will find the power costing fifty cents per kilowatt-hour. Generation kWh-per-household, plant CAPACITY is ONE FIFTH that of the USA. Overload the grid and the distribution grid goes dark.

The point I am pleading here is if the USA hopes to clean up North American air it cannot ignore Mexico. Sarcastically, instead of funding millions of dollars for Pakistani dance interpretation, pay the FLUOR CORPORATION to design a new ultra low sulfur fuel refinery.

In a country where a fifteen thousand dollar automobile is a sign of wealthy extravagance, there just isn't enough funding to do this without help. Gang Canada, the USA, France, Germany and Great Britain together to build a gigantic refinery. Get Mexico to commit absolute fair share funding for the project that they cannot weasel out of.

But to go electric photo panels, all electric houses, cars trains and trucks next door to a source of pollution 100x worse than the US in the sixties is absurd folly.

A ten thousand dollar carbon fiber racing bicycle in the Congo.

Only then would I start believing in electrical green.

Japanese export diesel to Mexico?

Fascinating lunacy indeed,since Jpan has to import process and ship it that far out over again.
Why dont Mexico get oil from Venezuela right next door ?

Anyhow you get plenty sunshine down there so solar panels could suply all the energy you could need.

free radical

Canada

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Posted: 05/08/21 08:28pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Timmo! wrote:

As I was collecting data to finalize my "break even" analysis between ICE and BEV, I discovered Volvo already did that for us. For starters, the basic ICE XC40 has a $33,700 base MRSP and the BEV version is $53,900, for a premium of over $20k.

Using the amount of emissions from the average power plant (mix all sources of power) once you drive the XC40 for 97,270 miles (146,000 km), you are now "greener" than the XC40 gas version. If we used 100% solar power (no coal, natural gas, hydro, etc) then at 29,204 miles (47,000 km) you are now "greener" than the ICE version. Until you reach those breakeven points the ICE XC40 has a smaller carbon footprint.


Bottomline--

As long as the XC40 Recharge has a higher Carbon Footprint from the Materials production and refining phase than the XC40 ICE, the question of break-even will remain. At what distance will GHG emissions from Materials production and refining be outweighed by lower emissions in the use phase? This study shows a break-even point of almost 50,000 km for the wind powered XC40 Recharge, significantly below the driving distance of 200,000 km used as the functional unit. When considering a global average electricity mix the break-even point is at about 146,000 km for XC40 Recharge, also below the 200,000 km. After the break-even points the global warming related benefits of the XC40 Recharge compared to the XC40 ICE continue to increase over the rest of the life cycle. This means that the longer the lifetime, the lower the Carbon Footprint of the XC40 Recharge compared to the XC40 ICE.

Volvo report https://group.volvocars.com/news/sustain........edia/ccs/Volvo_carbonfootprintreport.pdf

Following are excerpts from that report.

[image]
[image]
[image]
[image]

So, it depends on what region you live in and kind of fuel required to generate electricity.

Those with lowest MPG are states with "dirty power" (greater emissions per kWh).
[image]

Source: https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/g........vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953

How is your energy generated? https://www.chooseenergy.com/data-center/electricity-sources-by-state/

How much does your state charge for power? https://www.electricchoice.com/electricity-prices-by-state/

So, is it worth a $20k premium for the BEV XC40? IMO, no. The Volvo is for my wife and she buys one tank of gas every 6 weeks or so for her Benz, and probably drives 200-300 miles a month. Assuming Oregon goes 100% wind, then around the 8th year the BEV will be "greener" than the ICE alternative.

You forgot to include cost of driling for oil refining procesing and shiping such to destination using dirty fuel powered vehicles.

also making sick and kiling milions of people w resulting dirty air coming from emisions exhausts pipes.

Driving EV is cleaner no matter how you try to spin the tale while avoiding fosil fuels shortcomings.
Shall we include all the wars and related casualties in pursuit of oil control?
Iraq Iran Venezuela,Lybia Syria etc

fj12ryder

Platte City, MO

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Joined: 08/19/2003

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Posted: 05/08/21 09:14pm Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

free radical wrote:

Wait for what? Stupidity on grand scale!?

What will they make hydrogen fuel from,water heated by solar panels or nukes or what?

Then compress into special high presure vesel tanks that are dangerous
To handle and refuel.

Why not just recharge bateries with sun like Tesla and other EV cars and buses do?
Rube Goldberg must be chearin on Japanese nonsense from the grave Lol

Electric beat h20 hands down,dont believe it,go buy hydrogen power car and let us know how you like it.
Wait a minute, you sound like an ICE proponent arguing against EV's. [emoticon]

EV proponents always are saying just wait a few years and all the problems will be solved...somehow. Why doesn't the same argument work here? [emoticon] Give it a few years for the process to mature. Y'know like electric vehicles. [emoticon]


Howard and Peggy

"Don't Panic"

Bobbo

Wherever I park

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Posted: 05/09/21 06:37am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

fj12ryder wrote:

Wait a minute, you sound like an ICE proponent arguing against EV's. [emoticon]

EV proponents always are saying just wait a few years and all the problems will be solved...somehow. Why doesn't the same argument work here? [emoticon] Give it a few years for the process to mature. Y'know like electric vehicles. [emoticon]

Beat me to it.


Bobbo and Lin
2017 F-150 XLT 4x4 SuperCab w/Max Tow Package 3.5l EcoBoost V6
2017 Airstream Flying Cloud 23FB


pianotuna

Regina, SK, Canada

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Posted: 05/09/21 07:06am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

Current h2 technology only allow 1/2 of a tank fill so I have read. I don't understand why, nor do I know if it is true.


Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, soon to have SiO2 batteries, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Timmo!

Oregon

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Posted: 05/09/21 08:45am Link  |  Print  |  Notify Moderator

free radical wrote:


You forgot to include cost of driling for oil refining procesing and shiping such to destination using dirty fuel powered vehicles.

also making sick and kiling milions of people w resulting dirty air coming from emisions exhausts pipes.

Driving EV is cleaner no matter how you try to spin the tale while avoiding fosil fuels shortcomings.
Shall we include all the wars and related casualties in pursuit of oil control?
Iraq Iran Venezuela,Lybia Syria etc


The production costs of oil are included in Volvo's analysis. As to your other issues, millions of people have not died from dirty air (care to backup your claim with facts?). But with rational like that, shouldn't we include all the damage that lithium mining causes? At some point one has to compare apples with oranges, and the best analytic tool is to prepare a breakeven chart to illustrate when the apple (greater upfront cost) performs better than the more affordable orange.

I understand you want the BEV to be cleaner, but right out the gate the Volvo's BEV XC40 has over 10 tons of carbon emissions compared to their ICE version. All BEV manufacturers acknowledge this, so should you.

The crossover point where the carbon footprint of the BEV (30-70% greater) bests ICE will always be years down the road due to operational differences. The wildcard is everyone is different; when it comes to number of miles we drive and the source of fuel used to generate electricity in the region you live.

[image]

As you can see from the above graphic, oil, coal and gas fuels are all under 100mpg equivalent, while the nuclear, wind and hydro all in the thousands equivalent mpg.

In 2019, total U.S. electricity generation by the electric power industry of 4.13 trillion kilowatthours (kWh) from all energy sources resulted in the emission of 1.72 billion metric tons—1.90 billion short tons—of carbon dioxide (CO2). This equaled about 0.92 pounds of CO2 emissions per kWh.

In 2019, power plants that burned coal, natural gas, and petroleum fuels were the source of about 62% of total U.S. electricity generation, but they accounted for 99% of U.S. electricity-related CO2 emissions. The other 1% of CO2 emissions were from other fuels and gases derived from fossil fuels and some types of geothermal power plants. EIA considers electricity generation from biomass, hydro, solar, and wind to be carbon neutral.


Source: https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/fil........ars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf


Sorry, for a BEV to be "greener" than an ICE vehicle, it will depend on total miles driven and source of fuel (clean or dirty) your region's power plant uses to generate electricity.

Referring to the USA map in my prior post, a simple example is Hawaii: BEV's using HIOA power for charging have an equivalent of 36 mpg (dirty); compared to New York's NYUP power with a charging equivalent of 135 mpg (saintly clean). With these facts, an BEV in Hawaii will never be "greener" than a comparable ICE vehicle.

Prepare your own breakeven or crossover analysis of your BEV's Carbon Footprint with a comparable ICE vehicle (which Volvo did for us) and then do the same with money. At what point will the premium paid for a BEV ($20,290 in the case for XC40) be recouped? Based on $3.50/gallon I could buy almost 58k gallons of gas and drive (based on 29 mpg) over 168k miles.

Think with your head, not with your heart!

* This post was edited 05/09/21 09:41am by Timmo! *

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